But back to the subject, Ezekiel is speaking of the soul that dies, dying in his sin, etc.
I think you're very much off tract with your summary!
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Eternal Security
- Thread starter Ben1445
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But back to the subject, Ezekiel is speaking of the soul that dies, dying in his sin, etc.
I think you're very much off tract with your summary!
Yes. Ezekiel is speaking of righteousness and unrighteousness under the Law.
These are the examples Ezeliel stated in the SAME PASSAGE:
sheds blood, eats at the mountain shrines, defiles his neighbor’s wife, oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but raises his eyes to the idols and commits abomination, 13 lends money at interest and takes interest; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he shall certainly be put to death; his blood will be on himself.
David committed at least two of these transgressions.
Per Ezekiel if you lend money at interest (the context would be to a member of God's people) then you shall not live.
I am not turning anything. The examples are RIGHT THERE in the passage you are quoting.
Read the entire passage you are quoting (at least a chapter before and after as well...chapter and verse divisions were added later)
No sir, you are very much mistaken, my friend.
Ezekiel is talking about eternal life and eternal death!
It has nothing to do with the Law, it's about individual responsibility to remain in the faith.
Yes, the one who charges interest, who commits adultery, who steals, who sheds blood, etc...will die (the person who sins will die, sins cannot be transferred from one to another).
We could go with the KJV and say "the soul that sinneth shall die" but it means the same. The person who commits a sin shall die. But if he repents he shall live. If a sinless person sins then he will die. Righteous and sins cannot be transferred.
I could be. That is an issue with summaries.
Let's look at the surrounding passage and see if Ezekiel is speaking of "falling away" from the faith or committing sins.
I prefer Scripture, believe it or not, to even my own summaries.
But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, 6 if he does not eat at the mountain shrines or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period— 7 and if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 8 and if he does not lend money at interest or take interest, if he keeps his hand from injustice and executes true justice between one person and another, 9 if he walks in My statutes and keeps My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will certainly live,” declares the Lord God.
10 “However, he may father a violent son who sheds blood, and does any one of these things to a brother 11 (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor’s wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but raises his eyes to the idols and commits abomination, 13 lends money at interest and takes interest; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he shall certainly be put to death; his blood will be on himself.
14 “Now behold, he has fathered a son who saw all his father’s sins which he committed, but he has seen them and does not do likewise. 15 He does not eat at the mountain shrines or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel; he has not defiled his neighbor’s wife, 16 nor oppressed anyone, nor retained a pledge, nor committed robbery; instead, he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 17 he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take any kind of interest on loans, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s guilt, he will certainly live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his guilt.
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall certainly live. 20 The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 “But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22 All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and dies because of it, for his injustice which he has committed he dies. 27 But when a wicked person turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Since he understood and turned away from all his offenses which he had committed, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 29 But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your offenses, so that wrongdoing does not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Hurl away from you all your offenses which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”
Then why does Ezekiel list offenses under the Law....like charging interest, adultery, idolatry, visiting mountain shrines, etc. rather than remaining in or falling away from the faith when explaining righteousness and unrighteousness?
There are born-again believers who commit adultery, who steals, who sheds blood, etc.
None of us are above any of this given the right circumstances.
the difference is in whether God recognizes FAITH, as to whether you are in need of a spanking to bring you back in line, or if you have turned reprobate and will be rejected.
Well...I'm a South Carolinian. We are known for our loveable stubbornness.
Jon, you are adding to the context what is not there,
The point of Ezekiel 18 is "the sinner shall die" eternal separation from God.
"The righteous shall live" eternal glory with God.
Well...I'm a South Carolinian. We are known for our loveable stubbornness.
I'm next door in NC, the only thing more stubborn than a Gamecock is a Tar Heel.
I agree that none....except maybe me were I not so humble...are above such things.
The issue I am having reconciling your insistence that Ezekiel was speaking of any New Covenant faith rather than the Mosaic Law are the specific examples he uses.
In your explanation (make sure I am tracking) you say that Ezekiel is stating that the righteousness may turn from his righteousness and sin (Ezekiel gives several examples of how...charging interest, shedding blood, adultery, etc).
I understand you to be saying that this is "falling away", or turning from the faith as described in Hebrews.
If this is true, then a believer who steals has turned from the faith and can never be saved.
What am I missing?
I think I messed something from how you got to Hebrews from Ezekiel but I can't pinpoint it.
This is not calculus, Jon, the decider is when the righteous man turns from his righteousness (turns from the faith) he will die in his sins.
This is not about the backslider in any shape or form. But I repeat, you know this, you just want to argue.
I understand the principle. I do not understand how you are extracting it from Ezekiel.
The sinner shall die, unless he repents.
The one who does right shall live, unless he sins.
Ezeliel lists a bunch of violations to the Law
God will judge each according to their conduct (verse 30)
Sins cannot be transferred
Sins can be forgiven
Righteousness cannot be transferred
God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked
Their blood shall be on their hands
Repent and live
I get that.
I do not get where, in the Ezekiel passage you have decided he is talking about turning from the faith.
I have a problem ignoring verses 21 and 24:
"But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die."
"But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die."
In these verses Ezeliel specifically states that repentance is from sins committed, and the righteous' blood on their own hands if they sin for the unrighteous things they have done.
I'm sorry, but the passage in Ezeliel does not support your view anymore than the one in Hebrews supported @JesusFan 's view.
You are defining what the righteousness turns from as faith. Ezekiel wrote that it is "treachery and sins committed".
My son drives to Charlotte quite often (Carowinds)
This statement right here makes no sense whatsoever.
"In these verses Ezeliel specifically states that repentance is from sins committed, and the righteous' blood on their own hands if they sin for the unrighteous things they have done."
You are right.
What I mean is Ezekiel specifically states that if a righteous man "does what the wicked do" he will die "for the sins that he has committed".
My comment is that Ezekiel is talking about a righteous person committing sins, not a righteous person abandoning his faith.
How do you get from Ezekiel's focus on sins (he lists adultery, shedding blood, robbery, charging interest, among other violations of the Law) to this being abandoning the faith?
Notice that before the mention of sin by Ezekiel, he states that the righteous man has turned from his righteousness.
A saved person does not sin without any thought of it, with no guilt.
The turning away from his faith began first in his heart and developed into the actions of careless sin as the lost do every day.
It is the same sentence, defining what he is speaking about.
Starting with verse 5
But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, 6 if he does not eat at the mountain shrines or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period— 7 and if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 8 and if he does not [g]lend money at interest or take [h]interest, if he keeps his hand from injustice and executes true justice between one person and another, 9 if he walks in My statutes and keeps My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will certainly live,” declares the Lord God.
Nowhere does the passage speak of turning away from his faith.
But constantly Ezekiel states righteousness under the Law.
Yes, a man who has faith in his heart will practice righteousness, not perfectly, he will make mistakes
But the man whose faith is departed will most certainly practice unrighteousness as the unsaved, and it won't even bother him to do so.