In What Sense Does The Spirit Enlighten All Mankind

[Paleouss]

Greetings to all denominations under Christ. I have placed this post under Calvinism & Arminianism to get the full spectrum of criticism.

Forgive the length. The basic premise is that natural revelation is depicted within scripture as being passively received by mankind (God is the active agent).

To be transparent, to the Calvinist I am sometimes accused of being an Arminian and to the Arminians I am sometimes accused of being a Calvinist. I thought I'd pick a theology where I would get criticized the most. . My theology can also be considered a form of empiricism, similar to Locke and Edwards (not the empiricism of modern day). And it is that Christian Imperialism that drives this post.

Natural Manifestation is Received
There is the concept about natural revelation that says, (A) the “speech” (Psa 19:2) of creation that contains spiritual instruction and declares the glory of God is buried in this world waiting for the intellect of man to actively find it with reason and logical deduction. Conversely, there is the concept that I am asserting that (B) the ‘speech’ of this world, that contains spiritual instruction, declares the glory of God and is written by the Spirit in the world upon every heart of man who is passively receiving it through his experiences (to be clear, I do not deny all forms of innate knowledge). The former concept (A) is reminiscent of man unearthing truths about God through his intellect that is hidden in plain sight. The latter concept is reminiscent of truths about God being “written upon the heart” (Rom 2:15) of every man through experience, in time. The former would seem to make man the active acquirer of his instruction, the latter is man as the passive recipient of his instruction; the former is man that needs no teacher for he is his own teacher, the latter is man that is being taught by his teacher; the former is contingent upon each man’s desire for spiritual instruction through the intellect, the latter contingent upon God and his desire to write this spiritual instruction upon every heart.

I do not deny that man can also actively seek knowledge about God. Only that the scriptures consistently depict this knowledge being received passively by mankind (meaning the Spirit is the active agent).

“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. ” (Rom 1:19-21)

We can see that the phrase “what can be known about God is plain to them” (Rom 1:19a) is in agreement with “there is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard” (Psa 19:3). In other words, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, son of God nor son of man that has not received the instruction that has been preordained to be within creation and disseminated to mankind through the voice of the creational experience.

There are some additional points that are very important to recognize in Rom 1:19-21 regarding our topic. First, “they are without excuse” (Rom 1:20c). Which generates a question of, in what way can they be without excuse? And the answer to this is in the very next verse, for “they knew God” (Rom 1:21a). Which generates another question of, how did they come to know God? And the answer to this is, “God has shown it to them” (Rom 1:19).

Now, to show something to someone is not to say that a natural man finds it or comes by it purely by his desire and intellect. No, to be shown something is to be a passive recipient of that something. I herein assert that according to the Bible, mankind is the passive recipient of all spiritual instruction whether it be natural manifestation or special revelation. That the spiritual instruction within natural manifestation is “written upon the heart” (Rom 2:15) of all mankind, who is the passive recipient, by the Spirit in the world. That is, man cannot and does not control the spiritual instruction that comes from the spiritual source in his experiences. The instruction that is written upon the heart of man through his experiences, i.e. natural manifestation, is within the power of the spiritual source and not in the power of the recipient. Put another way, the receiving of spiritual speech, that is the voice (Psa 19:1), that proclaims and makes relational the glory of God’s attributes within experience, does not involve an active mental contribution by man to obtain it or not (Rom 3:11); it is “written on the heart of man” (Rom 2:15) through the creational experience by the Spirit in the world, in time.

This is not to say that a man cannot intellectually consider this instruction or ponder it in a deeper way. For knowledge and truth are the very reasons God has bestowed upon mankind a faculty of reason and understanding. And without such things as the faculty or capacity of knowing such things through experience, natural man could not be “without excuse” (Rom 1:20) and the knowledge of God being “clearly perceived”. According to the words of God, “Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge” (Psa 19:1) (active voice). And this knowledge is “clearly perceived” (Rom 1:20) by all of mankind for “God has shown it to them ” (Rom 1:19) (active voice) by writing it upon the hearts of man (Rom 2:15) (active voice). Not only has God shown it to them but through this spiritual voice (Psa 1:19), it can be said that “they knew God” (Rom 1:21) to the extent that on judgment day the Shepherd can proclaim that He is known through man’s experiences by saying, “I” was hungry and you gave“ ”me" no food (Matt 25:42).


Keep Seeking God's Truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[Van]

Romans 2:15 NASB
in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

If we consider the Greek verbs in this verse, are they passive or are they either middle or active?

The Blue Letter Interlinear says "show" is middle, meaning the people act upon themselves to acquire what is displayed. The verb "testifying" is active, the person's conscience is making known whether something is consistent or inconsistent with what they have written on their own hearts.

There is no support from this version of the grammar for "passive" reception from the supernatural.

Romans 3:11 says no one understands, but does not say say no one ever understands, because many verses teach some of the lost sometimes seek God, such as Luke 13:24. So the biblical interpretation is no one understands all things or all the time because we all sin, whether we know it or not.

Romans 1:20 says we perceive what is displayed before us passively, but once passively displayed before us, we "are" without excuse. And of course the "are" is active, we know what we have seen in our experience, such as God's love and righteousness.

Lastly Romans 1:19 does teach that God actively displays or makes evident to people what His attributes are, but the information is derived from what He has made, not from some claimed supernatural enablement.

The effort to add more than necessary for God to bring to light spiritual things including the gospel is without any actual basis in scripture.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings Van. Great to hear from you again. Thank you for your insights and wisdom.

I want to make sure we are speaking about the same thing. So what I am speaking about is general revelation, how God is revealed to mankind through the world. And exactly how that takes place.

(A). Romans 1:18-21:
(1A). The unrighteous "suppress the truth" (Rom 1:18). This would seem to indicate that whatever truth Paul is talking about, the unrighteousness knows this truth.
(1B). What truth they know (1A), it has been "manifested in them" (Rom 1:19) (apparent evident, known).
(1C) The truth is in them (1A), the truth is 'evident' and 'known' to them (1B) because (1C) "God has shown [it] to them" (Rom 1:19b).

It seems clear that God is the active agent. It doesn't say they sought it out or that they found it (not talking about salvation here. Just the "truth" that there is a God). But it says they were "shown" (to make known by teaching). Now, by what instrument did God 'show' this truth? The instrument He used was/is "the creation".

Lets look at Psalm 19 for a cross reference, in Psalms 19 we see four important truths regarding our inquiry. First, God’s creation “reveals knowledge” (Psa 19:2b). Second, the vehicle that reveals this knowledge through creation is referred to as a “voice” (Psa 19:4a). Third, there is no speech (19:3a), meaning different dialects of mankind, that has “not heard” (Psa 19:3c) this voice that is revealing knowledge. More important than asserting that this speech is not hindered by different spoken languages is that all mankind, that is even the natural man, can “clearly perceive” (Rom 1:20) the knowledge that comes from this voice. Fourth, this voice will continue to reveal this knowledge until the “end of the world” (Psa 19:4b).

It seems to me that even though Psalm 19 is figurative language, the "voice" is what is giving truth and knowledge. It doesn't say we actively see and understand (although maybe we could). It says there is a voice that gives. We also see this very same active agent theme in Acts 14 when God “did not leave himself without witness” (Acts 14:16) by actively giving good through experiences of “rains” and “fruitful seasons” (Act 14:17); also in Job 12 when we are told that the beasts will “teach you”, the birds will “tell you”, the fish will “declare to you” (Job 12:8); and in Proverbs, “Wisdom cries aloud in the street, in the markets she raises her voice” (Prov 1:20). Here wisdom is crying “aloud” and raising “her voice” in the public streets.

Now Romans 2. Whatever Romans 2 says must be consistent with Romans 1 and psalm 19, imo.

(Rom 2:15 NKJV) 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves [their] thoughts accusing or else excusing [them])

The Blue Letter Interlinear says "show" is middle

I think clearly the verse in Rom 2 is saying that the human individual is showing something. What are they showing? They are showing "the law written in their hearts" (Rom 2:15). What is not being said is 'how' the law was "written in their hearts". This "law" is written there, and they know it, because "their conscience also [bears] witness" that it is there. Further, "their thoughts accusing" also testify that this law is there. So the question left unanswered by Paul seems to be, how was the law written on hearts?

Cross references for the phrase "written on heart" as it is used in the Bible (Exodus 24:12; Prov 3:3, 7:3; Jer 31:33; Heb 10:16).

Traditionally, it seems that some have formulated the thought that that which is written on the heart was written at creation. Although I do not deny that some innate knowledge is written at one's creation. I do however suggest that these general revelation verses are talking about, what I would call the 'creational experience'.

The creational experience is understood as the concept that everything that is created, that includes every creational experience, points the student, that is all of mankind through the communication of the Spirit in the world, toward a single culminating purpose (Eph 1:10, Isa 46:10, 2Cor 5:10. Acts 17:26). The manifestation within the created order is the pre-ordaining of the ceaseless presence and activity of the Spirit in the world that gives instruction through experiences to the invisible qualities of God the Son from the foundation of creation. (Not exposing Universalism here).

Let me give an analogy so you might understand the overarching concept I am driving toward...

This is like a diligent father who has two daughters. Before either were born this father planned and worked out in every detail many lessons for his two daughters so that they would be prepared for their wedding that the father had prepared upon their coming of age. As the two daughters grow the father lays before them these many lessons and experiences that he had beforehand planned and created that they might be ready for their future wedding. Now one daughter recognizes the teachings as preparation for a wedding she desires. Her father’s teachings through everyday lessons are reviewed and analyzed by this daughter. She reads and studies additional books her father has written to better understand her father’s lessons, she bindsthese lessons and internalizes them within herself and she becomes better prepared for her wedding because of it. The other daughter does not desire to be wed in her future and does not focus on her lessons but on other things more valuable to her desires. This daughter does not understand the teachings of her father and does not make conscious connections from one lesson to the next because she does not believe in any future wedding. Her understanding of this preparation is disjointed and it is foolishness to her since she does not value the lessons that prepare her for a wedding she does not intend to have.

Now, after the daughters have both grown and finally reach their marriageable age they both can be said to be prepared by the father in all the lessons needed for their future wedding. The one daughter had consciously recognized these lessons she had been taught and attempted to apply them toward her additional growth. And then on that day, that is her wedding, she is united with her groom in which she had previously been prepared by her father and had eagerly awaited. The other daughter, after being grown, does not consciously recognize her preparedness she had been taught. However, the requirements of the preparation have been ingrained in her whether she consciously recognizes it or not. She frequently does by habit things taught by her father’s lessons and that are required for her preparation. She knows not the full scope of the preparation for her future wedding but shows signs of that preparation nonetheless; even though she does not have a coherent understanding of those past lessons. Her habits show that the requirements of being prepared for the wedding have been ingrained in her, her memory sometimes bearing witness to her lessons, and her thoughts sometimes in line with her ingrained habits and at other times even defending these habits. But she denies any devotion to this preparedness that is reflected through her upbringing. She rejects the teachings of her father’s lessons, never seeks to accumulate additional growth toward preparedness, at times attempts to hide this preparedness, and endeavors to walk her own way. And when her wedding date comes and the groom arrives, there is no bride to be wed; for she did not desire to be wed and did not eagerly search for the coming of her groom.

So too is our heavenly Father with His creation.

Peace to you brother.

 

[Van]

Point 1 - God has shown "truth" to the lost. Agreed. They discerned it from what He has made. (General revelation.)

Point 2 - God is the active agent because He provides the display discernible to the lost. Agreed

Point 3 - I disagree, to be shown does not require to be made known by teaching, just displayed such that His truth is discernible.

Point 4 - The "voice" of Psalm 19:3 is simply the observable truths revealed by what God has made.

Point 5 - The "voice" does not impart knowledge, it presents discernible knowledge concerning God's attributes.

Point 6 - The voice speaks through "what He has made" requiring human discernment, not supernatural enlightenment.

Point 7 - There is no mystery of how the Law was written on the Gentiles hearts. It was discerned from what God has made, thus they are without excuse.

Point 8 - I agree, General revelation writes upon the hearts of all people via their discernment such that they are without excuse.

Last point, you seem to be driving toward something needing to be read into the text.

 

[Paleouss]

Van. Thank you for your critiques and concerns. I hope you had a blessed evening.

Point 3 - I disagree, to be shown does not require to be made known by teaching, just displayed such that His truth is discernible.

To your point #3. If God first "shows" this truth to all mankind through His creation. It seems to me that the question is then, 'why'? Is not the 'purpose' to teach? Did not God put it there for a reason? If so, what was the reason? And if the reason was so that mankind would know something about God, then is not God putting it there to teach them that very thing?

God, in His great wisdom in design, had preordained that His created world communicate something to mankind. Would you agree with this?

Now the Bible says that God created for God the Son (Col 1:16, Rom 11:36, Heb 2:10). He created a beginning to this world that began in one state (posse peccare, posse non peccare) and its purpose was to end in another state (non posse peccare). That ending state coming from the 'unite all things' (Eph 1:10) to what is the Omega (Rev 22:13, 1:8, 1:11, 21:6), which is God the Son. Therefore, the purposeful end, that is the object of final end that was decreed from the precipice of creation, is that all creation culminates toward its intended end, and that is God the Son (Eph 1:10, Rom 11:36, Rev 22:13, 1:8, 1:11, 21:6).

Point 4 - The "voice" of Psalm 19:3 is simply the observable truths revealed by what God has made.

Point 5 - The "voice" does not impart knowledge, it presents discernible knowledge concerning God's attributes.

Point 6 - The voice speaks through "what He has made" requiring human discernment, not supernatural enlightenment.

Regarding your #4. It seems that your language even suggests what I am saying. That is, you state that the "voice" 'reveals' truth. Granted you did say "by what God has made". But still, revealed by God...first. In other words, I, God, reveal this to you so that you will perceive it. And I know that you will all perceive it because I created you in a manner in which you will receive what I am revealing.

Regarding #5. If I stand before you and do not speak. You scan and measure me and glean what knowledge you can. But if I speak with a voice then I communicate something to you that I have calculated to communicate. That which I communicate to you through my voice is knowledge about me and what I am trying to communicate. Thus, Psalm 19 is telling you that God is using His voice, if you will allow, to communicate something to you. What He is trying to communicate is knowledge about Him. Do you agree?

All may active agent claims would be speculation if not for the fact that Job 12 tells us that the beasts will “teach you”, the birds will “tell you”, the fish will “declare to you” (Job 12:8); and in Proverbs, “Wisdom cries aloud in the street, in the markets she raises her voice” (Prov 1:20). Here wisdom is crying “aloud” and raising “her voice” in the public streets.

There is no verse that explicitly states what you are suggesting. I grant also, that no verse explicitly states what I am suggesting. The dispute is what the verse imply. I contend that all the natural revelation verses have a common theme. That theme is that God "shows", God actively is "giving", God is actively teaching toward His intended purposeful end.

Point 7 - There is no mystery of how the Law was written on the Gentiles hearts. It was discerned from what God has made, thus they are without excuse.

Regarding #7. I agree, there is no mystery. We just disagree on what appears obvious to each of us separately. In the previous post I put cross references for the phrase "written on heart" to show the consistency of my claim regarding Romans 2. Those verses were, (Exodus 24:12; Prov 3:3, 7:3; Jer 31:33; Heb 10:16). Without going to an exegesis of these verse, if you review them you will start to have perimeters for the phrase in Romans 2. Those perimeters will start to answer the question of (a) what does the Bible consistently say about who is writing this upon the heart? and (b) when is this being written on the heart? Is it at creation (no) or is it in time through experience? (yes)

Regarding your last point, "you seem to be driving toward something needing to be read into the text". I would say this, what sense does it make to say that we should “rejoice in our suffering” (Rom 5:3), and “count it all joy when [we] meet trials of various kinds” (Jam 1:2), if trials are not a reference to difficult experiences that have been placed before us by God to assist in cultivating us harmoniously with the Spirit of grace toward our purposeful end. Further, what nonsense would it be to the intellect to say “through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22) if tribulations were not a reference to life’s encounters that can help build spiritual outcomes? Or that the whole of our purposeful moments are not the implied assembly line by which our life’s script is played out when scripture tells us that the Lord tests hearts and minds (Psa 26:2, Prov 17:3) so that the genuineness of our faith is tested (1Pet 1:7); and from these tests of faith, through experience, comes endurance (Rom 5:3). For we know that God tests the hearts of men through experience (Prov 17:3) and through experience he tries them as silver is tried (Psa 66:10).

If you agree with the above, then can we not say that trials and tribulations are happening to the unbelieving? And if so, are they not learning something from it that will be a stone around their neck at judgement? And if so, did not God design experience to be this way? And if so, is this not a plan to teach toward an end?

Peace to you brother

 

[Van]

Point 3 - To provide information discernible for a purpose is not supernatural teaching.

Point 4 - To provide discernible information removes any excuse, even if the information is not accepted.

Point 5 - To provide discernible information does not suggest supernatural teaching via a spiritual voice.

Point 6 - The claim no verse supports that the lost are able to discern truth from what God has made is false.

Romans 1:20​

Point 7 - "Written on their heart"

Exodus 24:12 addresses God writing on stone tablets so non-germane.
Proverbs 3:3 refers to the person writing on their own heart tablet, not God so non-germane.
Proverbs 7:3 again refers to the person writing on their own heart tablet, not God so non-germane.
Jeremiah 31:33 refers to God writing on saved persons hearts, not the lost, so non-germane.
Hebrews 10:16 refers to God writing on saved persons hearts, not the lost, so non-germane.​

Point 8 - The issue is not that God has not placed difficult circumstances before us, the issue is the claim the lost are unable to discern spiritual truth from what God has made evident. Yes, some do not discern them, but the cause is not being open to God's revelations due to past choices such as habitual sin. But those that comprise the fields white for harvest are open and able to discern God's truths, whether general or special.

Point 9 - Yes one purpose of the harsh circumstances of life is to facilitate the lost to seek the refuge of God, but that in no way supports the premise of supernatural enablement or communication to convey some of God's truths, spiritual milk.

 

[Marooncat79]

Greetings to all denominations under Christ. I have placed this post under Calvinism & Arminianism to get the full spectrum of criticism.

Forgive the length. The basic premise is that natural revelation is depicted within scripture as being passively received by mankind (God is the active agent).

To be transparent, to the Calvinist I am sometimes accused of being an Arminian and to the Arminians I am sometimes accused of being a Calvinist. I thought I'd pick a theology where I would get criticized the most. . My theology can also be considered a form of empiricism, similar to Locke and Edwards (not the empiricism of modern day). And it is that Christian Imperialism that drives this post.

Natural Manifestation is Received
There is the concept about natural revelation that says, (A) the “speech” (Psa 19:2) of creation that contains spiritual instruction and declares the glory of God is buried in this world waiting for the intellect of man to actively find it with reason and logical deduction. Conversely, there is the concept that I am asserting that (B) the ‘speech’ of this world, that contains spiritual instruction, declares the glory of God and is written by the Spirit in the world upon every heart of man who is passively receiving it through his experiences (to be clear, I do not deny all forms of innate knowledge). The former concept (A) is reminiscent of man unearthing truths about God through his intellect that is hidden in plain sight. The latter concept is reminiscent of truths about God being “written upon the heart” (Rom 2:15) of every man through experience, in time. The former would seem to make man the active acquirer of his instruction, the latter is man as the passive recipient of his instruction; the former is man that needs no teacher for he is his own teacher, the latter is man that is being taught by his teacher; the former is contingent upon each man’s desire for spiritual instruction through the intellect, the latter contingent upon God and his desire to write this spiritual instruction upon every heart.

I do not deny that man can also actively seek knowledge about God. Only that the scriptures consistently depict this knowledge being received passively by mankind (meaning the Spirit is the active agent).


We can see that the phrase “what can be known about God is plain to them” (Rom 1:19a) is in agreement with “there is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard” (Psa 19:3). In other words, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, son of God nor son of man that has not received the instruction that has been preordained to be within creation and disseminated to mankind through the voice of the creational experience.

There are some additional points that are very important to recognize in Rom 1:19-21 regarding our topic. First, “they are without excuse” (Rom 1:20c). Which generates a question of, in what way can they be without excuse? And the answer to this is in the very next verse, for “they knew God” (Rom 1:21a). Which generates another question of, how did they come to know God? And the answer to this is, “God has shown it to them” (Rom 1:19).

Now, to show something to someone is not to say that a natural man finds it or comes by it purely by his desire and intellect. No, to be shown something is to be a passive recipient of that something. I herein assert that according to the Bible, mankind is the passive recipient of all spiritual instruction whether it be natural manifestation or special revelation. That the spiritual instruction within natural manifestation is “written upon the heart” (Rom 2:15) of all mankind, who is the passive recipient, by the Spirit in the world. That is, man cannot and does not control the spiritual instruction that comes from the spiritual source in his experiences. The instruction that is written upon the heart of man through his experiences, i.e. natural manifestation, is within the power of the spiritual source and not in the power of the recipient. Put another way, the receiving of spiritual speech, that is the voice (Psa 19:1), that proclaims and makes relational the glory of God’s attributes within experience, does not involve an active mental contribution by man to obtain it or not (Rom 3:11); it is “written on the heart of man” (Rom 2:15) through the creational experience by the Spirit in the world, in time.

This is not to say that a man cannot intellectually consider this instruction or ponder it in a deeper way. For knowledge and truth are the very reasons God has bestowed upon mankind a faculty of reason and understanding. And without such things as the faculty or capacity of knowing such things through experience, natural man could not be “without excuse” (Rom 1:20) and the knowledge of God being “clearly perceived”. According to the words of God, “Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge” (Psa 19:1) (active voice). And this knowledge is “clearly perceived” (Rom 1:20) by all of mankind for “God has shown it to them ” (Rom 1:19) (active voice) by writing it upon the hearts of man (Rom 2:15) (active voice). Not only has God shown it to them but through this spiritual voice (Psa 1:19), it can be said that “they knew God” (Rom 1:21) to the extent that on judgment day the Shepherd can proclaim that He is known through man’s experiences by saying, “I” was hungry and you gave“ ”me" no food (Matt 25:42).


Keep Seeking God's Truth as if it were hidden treasure

Sin righteousness and judgement

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

This is not to say that a man cannot intellectually consider this instruction or ponder it in a deeper way. For knowledge and truth are the very reasons God has bestowed upon mankind a faculty of reason and understanding. And without such things as the faculty or capacity of knowing such things through experience, natural man could not be “without excuse” (Rom 1:20) and the knowledge of God being “clearly perceived”. According to the words of God, “Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge” (Psa 19:1) (active voice). And this knowledge is “clearly perceived” (Rom 1:20) by all of mankind for “God has shown it to them ” (Rom 1:19) (active voice) by writing it upon the hearts of man (Rom 2:15) (active voice). Not only has God shown it to them but through this spiritual voice (Psa 1:19), it can be said that “they knew God” (Rom 1:21) to the extent that on judgment day the Shepherd can proclaim that He is known through man’s experiences by saying, “I” was hungry and you gave“ ”me" no food (Matt 25:42).

When talking about, "they knew God", we need to understand that for the lost soul they are enlightened to the Existence of God, but that Jesus said in Matthew 7, "depart from Me, I knew you not".

"How many today mistake every religious flurry for regeneration!
"Let us then proceed to examine some of the Spirit's workings that come short of regeneration.

"I. CONVICTI0N.In Genesis 6:3, we find that God's Spirit had striven with men before the Flood. Doubtless His power caused Enoch's preaching to sting many. Since that day multitudes like Felix (Acts 24:25) have trembled under God's Word, while others like Herod have received it with attention and gladness (Mark 6:20).

"Our Lord promised that the Spirit would convict the world of sin, righteousness and of judgment to come (John 16:8-11). Both in the Bible and in our experience we must confess that there are many who are never saved, yet they know what it is to be dealt with by God.

"II. SPIRITUAL INFLUENCES.

"A. In regeneration a permanent work is done in the spirit of man. His heart is made to love God and his eyes are opened to see spiritual truths. That faith which is a fruit of regeneration can never be overthrown (I John 5 :4-5). All this is to be attributed to the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5).

"B. While nothing short of the new birth can save a sinner, yet there are lesser works of the Spirit that many mistake for regeneration. Only God knows how close some come in appearance who are never saved.

"Have we not known men who seemed to love God and truth, yet fell away? Perseverance seems to be the main mark that distinguishes regeneration from the passing effects of common grace. This is so evident that former theologians spoke of the spiritual influences of common grace as temporary grace. We want to notice just three of the many Scriptures that prove this.

"C. In Matthew 13:1-24, we have both the parable of the sower and Christ's inspired exposition of the same.
This parable taught the disciples what to expect in their preaching ministries and has often given light to preachers since that time.

"Perhaps the most important lesson of the parable is that many would receive God's Word and profess Christ whose lives later would prove them to be Christless. While man by nature hates God, yet some because of the Spirit's influence receive His Word with joy (v. 20), but the change is not lasting.

"True faith is victorious, but temporary faith can be overcome by trials (v. 21), temptations (v. 22), and heresies (II Timothy 2:1.8).

"The parable of the sower is everywhere illustrated in gospel-preaching churches today.

"D. In II Peter 2:20-22, we have another case of those who are influenced by the gospel, yet later reveal their unregenerate state. The author has often found it helpful to compare this Scripture with II Peter, 1:3-4 to bring out the difference between common and saving grace.

"1. Let us first notice the characteristics of those in II Peter 2:20-22 who experienced only a temporary change.

"a. They escaped for a while certain of the more gross sins. (v. 20).

"b. They received a degree of enlightenment (v. 20). This reminds us of Balaam who received such a view of divine things as to cause him to say, "Let me die the death of the righteous" (Numbers 23: 10) yet he died without Christ.

"c. They fell away (verses 20-22). Peter compares them to hogs and dogs who have been cleaned up for awhile, but eventually their true natures are revealed as they return to their old habits.

"2. Let us note the characteristics of the regenerate man in II Peter 1:3-4.

"a. They not only escaped the more gross sins, but had their lusts subdued.

"b. They were "called" to glory and virtue.

"c. They were "partakers of the divine nature."

"d. They were given "all things that pertain to life and godliness," rather than just certain influences.

"e. There is no mention of their falling away.

"C. The last Scripture we will notice in Hebrews 6:4-6. Some of the Jews who professed Christ were in danger of falling away. The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews warns them that those who deny Christ after having experienced such gracious influences of God's Spirit are in a hopeless condition. We think of men like Balaam, Judas, Saul, Demas, or the Israelites who died in the wilderness. They experienced the breath of heaven, yet died lost and undone. (4)"

From The Person and Work of The Holy Spirit.

Sin righteousness and judgement

Exactly. Repeat from above: "Our Lord promised that the Spirit would convict the world of sin, righteousness and of judgment to come (John 16:8-11). Both in the Bible and in our experience we must confess that there are many who are never saved, yet they know what it is to be dealt with by God"

 

[Zaatar71]

Point 1 - God has shown "truth" to the lost. Agreed. They discerned it from what He has made. (General revelation.)

So people in the rainforest know about Jesus, his name and what he has done, because they can see the sun, moon, and stars?

Point 2 - God is the active agent because He provides the display discernible to the lost. Agreed

What is exactly discernable in the rainforest, explain how they know Acts4:12 for example?

Point 3 - I disagree, to be shown does not require to be made known by teaching, just displayed such that His truth is discernible.

You make this statement, explain how that happens?

Point 4 - The "voice" of Psalm 19:3 is simply the observable truths revealed by what God has made.

ok

Point 5 - The "voice" does not impart knowledge, it presents discernible knowledge concerning God's attributes.

It shows there is a creator, but does not identify His attributes.

Point 6 - The voice speaks through "what He has made" requiring human discernment, not supernatural enlightenment.

Apart from supernatural enlightenment. no one would be saved!

Point 7 - There is no mystery of how the Law was written on the Gentiles hearts. It was discerned from what God has made, thus they are without excuse.

Point 8 - I agree, General revelation writes upon the hearts of all people via their discernment such that they are without excuse.

Last point, you seem to be driving toward something needing to be read into the text.

Special revelation is essential.

 

[Van]

So people in the rainforest know about Jesus, his name and what he has done, because they can see the sun, moon, and stars?

What is exactly discernable in the rainforest, explain how they know Acts4:12 for example?

You make this statement, explain how that happens?

ok

It shows there is a creator, but does not identify His attributes.

Apart from supernatural enlightenment. no one would be saved!

Special revelation is essential.

1) Stop claiming I say "B" when I said A. Lost sinners are without excuse, as they know or should know what God has shown them. Romans 1:20

2) Stop claiming I say "B" which I said A. Did anyone say special revelation is given by general revelation? Nope, so stop with the nonsense.

3) People sometimes refuse to believe what they are shown, clinging to their presuppositions.

4) No, some who are exposed to the gospel, hear but do not learn.

5) General revelation makes information available (discernible) but does compel acceptance.

6) Apart from supernatural enablement alteration, every lost person saved is saved.

7 & 8) Romans 1:20

 

[Zaatar71]

1) Stop claiming I say "B" when I said A. Lost sinners are without excuse, as they know or should know what God has shown them. Romans 1:20

2) Stop claiming I say "B" which I said A. Did anyone say special revelation is given by general revelation? Nope, so stop with the nonsense.

3) People sometimes refuse to believe what they are shown, clinging to their presuppositions.

4) No, some who are exposed to the gospel, hear but do not learn.

5) General revelation makes information available (discernible) but does compel acceptance.

6) Apart from supernatural enablement alteration, every lost person saved is saved.

7 & 8) Romans 1:20

Are you saying salvation is not supernatural? That sounds like a false salvation. How can a person be saved then?

 

[Van]

Are you saying salvation is not supernatural? That sounds like a false salvation. How can a person be saved then?

Once again you do not address what I said, but invent a bogus view, then attribute it might be mine. Deflection.

Apart from supernatural enablement alteration, every lost person saved is saved.​

The claim of some is that the Fall made the lost unable to seek God or trust fully in Christ, thus God must supernaturally alter, via "Irresistible Grace" the lost in order to save them. However, scripture indicates the lost are able to understand spiritual milk, thus are able to hear and learn from the Father (via the gospel message) and if they do as determined by God, He saves them.

 

[Zaatar71]

Once again you do not address what I said, but invent a bogus view, then attribute it might be mine. Deflection.

​

Apart from supernatural enablement alteration, every lost person saved is saved.​

The claim of some is that the Fall made the lost unable to seek God or trust fully in Christ, thus God must supernaturally alter, via "Irresistible Grace" the lost in order to save them. However, scripture indicates the lost are able to understand spiritual milk, thus are able to hear and learn from the Father (via the gospel message) and if they do as determined by God, He saves them.

What is enablement alteration? Which scripture describes this alteration> thanks.

 

[Van]

What is enablement alteration? Which scripture describes this alteration> thanks.

Calvinism doctrine (TULIP) includes the "I" which is "Irresistible Grace." This doctrine has no basis in scripture, it is a fiction. It claims the lost never seek God until supernaturally enabled by "Irresistible Grace." Only those individuals, supposedly chosen before creation, are supernaturally enabled so they are compelled to come to faith. Again, a complete fiction.

 

[Zaatar71]

Calvinism doctrine (TULIP) includes the "I" which is "Irresistible Grace." This doctrine has no basis in scripture, it is a fiction. It claims the lost never seek God until supernaturally enabled by "Irresistible Grace." Only those individuals, supposedly chosen before creation, are supernaturally enabled so they are compelled to come to faith. Again, a complete fiction.

Thanks for your observations about with this group believes. It seems as if you do not share that belief?
How does your understanding differ?
I ask my previous question:

What is enablement alteration? Which scripture describes this alteration> thanks.
You told me about this other group of people, what they believe, but it does not look as if you answered this question at all.

 

[Van]

Thanks for your observations about with this group believes. It seems as if you do not share that belief?
How does your understanding differ?
I ask my previous question:

What is enablement alteration? Which scripture describes this alteration> thanks.
You told me about this other group of people, what they believe, but it does not look as if you answered this question at all.

Sorry, but I did answer your question. I will try one more time. "Enablement Alteration" is NOT found in scripture, it is false doctrine. The groups claiming the false doctrine are the Calvinists and the Arminians.

Arminians invent Prevenient Grace as the supernatural force altering the lost, enabling them to believe.
Calvinists invent Irresistible Grace as the supernatural force altering the lost, enabling them to believe.

 

[Zaatar71]

Sorry, but I did answer your question. I will try one more time. "Enablement Alteration" is NOT found in scripture, it is false doctrine. The groups claiming the false doctrine are the Calvinists and the Arminians.

Arminians invent Prevenient Grace as the supernatural force altering the lost, enabling them to believe.
Calvinists invent Irresistible Grace as the supernatural force altering the lost, enabling them to believe.

Thank you for your answer. Follow questions now would be...
1] Do you think the natural man does not need any alteration to welcome spiritual truth?

2] Do you think the fall of Adam had no lasting effect on mankind?

3] Do you think that the natural man can receive or welcome the things of God even though the scripture declares, He cannot!

 

[Van]

Thank you for your answer. Follow questions now would be...
1] Do you think the natural man does not need any alteration to welcome spiritual truth?

2] Do you think the fall of Adam had no lasting effect on mankind?

3] Do you think that the natural man can receive or welcome the things of God even though the scripture declares, He cannot!

Thank you for an honest response.

1) Yes, the lost are fallen, corrupted by the affects imposed as a consequence of Adam's sin.

2) No, that corruption does not require supernatural enablement to hear and learn from the Father, via the gospel.

3) "The things" does not mean all the things of the Spirit of God. The natural man cannot understand spiritual solid food (meat) as taught in ! Corinthians 3:1-3. But the natural man can understand some of the things of the Spirit of God, spiritual milk as taught by 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

4) No person can come to believe in Christ unless drawn by the Father, by hearing and learning from the Father via the gospel of Christ.

In summary, the lost can understand some spiritual things, such as the invisible attributes of God, from what He has made, and can hear and learn from the Father from what He has revealed via special revelation. Any other view is utterly unbiblical. God credits the faith of some of the fallen, such as Abraham, and those who believe God raised Christ from the dead. Note it is the faith of the believer, not the enabled faith or instilled faith.

 

[Zaatar71]

Thank you for an honest response.

1) Yes, the lost are fallen, corrupted by the affects imposed as a consequence of Adam's sin.

2) No, that corruption does not require supernatural enablement to hear and learn from the Father, via the gospel.

3) "The things" does not mean all the things of the Spirit of God. The natural man cannot understand spiritual solid food (meat) as taught in ! Corinthians 3:1-3. But the natural man can understand some of the things of the Spirit of God, spiritual milk as taught by 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

4) No person can come to believe in Christ unless drawn by the Father, by hearing and learning from the Father via the gospel of Christ.

In summary, the lost can understand some spiritual things, such as the invisible attributes of God, from what He has made, and can hear and learn from the Father from what He has revealed via special revelation. Any other view is utterly unbiblical. God credits the faith of some of the fallen, such as Abraham, and those who believe God raised Christ from the dead. Note it is the faith of the believer, not the enabled faith or instilled faith.

Thanks again for expressing and clarifying how you see things.

 

[Van]

Thanks again for expressing and clarifying how you see things.

I fear this is faint praise, as you did not tie how I see things with how scripture teaches things.

1) No acknowledgement that the fallen are "made sinners."

2) No acknowledgement that the lost can discern the invisible attributes of God from what He has made, indicating some spiritual ability.

3) No one can believe in Christ, hanging learned from the Father, unless God allows the belief. Thus God may disable some (those hardened) but all the rest, having heard, are able come to faith. Many come to believe with reservations, but God does not credit their faith as righteousness those less than fully committed.