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For they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. RSV. The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit ...
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In What Sense Does The Spirit Enlighten All Mankind
- Thread starter Paleouss
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Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse
For they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. RSV. The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit ...
I did not see any attempt to answer why Paul speaks to "men of flesh" using spiritual milk, if they cannot understand spiritual milk.
1 Corinthians 2:10, NASB
For to us God revealed through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
This verse says the Spirit reveals even the depths of God. Thus, the context points to these people being mature Christians able to understand spiritual solid food. It provides absolutely no support for the fiction that all of the lost cannot understand spiritual milk.
It is not a stretch to say Paul used spiritual milk to talk to "men of flesh" because they could understand spiritual milk. Any other claim is a stretch.
No, I did not add "all" or "some of" but interpreted the things to refer to the spiritual solid food things, per the context.
1 Corinthians 2:12 NASB
Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God.
This verse says we have been indwelt with the Spirit of God so we may know the things freely given to us by God. So again, spiritual solid food can only be understood and "known" by those indwelt, the lost cannot understand spiritual solid food. The verse provides absolutely no support for the idea that the lost cannot understand spiritual milk.
Thus the verses you posted do not even suggest support for Total Spiritual Inability.
The men of flesh were not acting out of character, so why did Paul address men of flesh using spiritual milk.
Matthew 13 is on topic, with 3 of the four types of people being able to understand spiritual milk, the gospel.
I am the one defending my understanding of scripture, you are the one questioning my character.
1 Corinthians 2:10, NASB
For to us God revealed through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
This verse says the Spirit reveals even the depths of God. Thus, the context points to these people being mature Christians able to understand spiritual solid food. It provides absolutely no support for the fiction that all of the lost cannot understand spiritual milk.
It is not a stretch to say Paul used spiritual milk to talk to "men of flesh" because they could understand spiritual milk. Any other claim is a stretch.
No, I did not add "all" or "some of" but interpreted the things to refer to the spiritual solid food things, per the context.
1 Corinthians 2:12 NASB
Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God.
This verse says we have been indwelt with the Spirit of God so we may know the things freely given to us by God. So again, spiritual solid food can only be understood and "known" by those indwelt, the lost cannot understand spiritual solid food. The verse provides absolutely no support for the idea that the lost cannot understand spiritual milk.
Thus the verses you posted do not even suggest support for Total Spiritual Inability.
The men of flesh were not acting out of character, so why did Paul address men of flesh using spiritual milk.
Matthew 13 is on topic, with 3 of the four types of people being able to understand spiritual milk, the gospel.
I am the one defending my understanding of scripture, you are the one questioning my character.
You did not see any comment on your hypothesis because if a person takes some time to take in the true context here it answers the question for sure!
We see that you skim over the ALL THINGS in verse 10...All things spiritual, from milk to meat. It is clear to a normal reading that the reason saved persons are indwelt by the Spirit is so we can receive the milk of the word first, as new born babes, then as we grow , the meat follows.
No indication is given here of people without the Spirit being able to understand any Spiritual Truth at all.
Is it possible that you have an aversion to those you post as Calvinists. They do not follow your spiritualizing of the text, so that seems as if it sends you into a frenzy and am abyss of spiritual confusion. I am just observing your public postings!
I have read about a man named Origen who spiritualized texts and distorted the true meaning. Is that what you do?
It looks like a HUGE stretch to insert things into the text...That is playing fast and loose with scripture. Beware you are not drifting far away to your own spiritual Island.
no, the other claims are rooted in the direct context
Verse ten already covered the ALL THINGS...try re-reading the passage with including all that is written here, that might benefit you.
Are you perhaps a new christian, and have not learned the necessity to grasp the context? many here can help you!
There you go...this should help you steer the boat back into the harbor!
Yes.. now you are getting to focus in part.
BIngo...stay on this thought...keep coming toward the light
Verse 14 is so obvious as well as the surrounding verses...how can you miss this?
I think the readers do not support your idea ,at all.
No evidence of that, you have an active imagination, but that keeps you in the fog on this topic...Are you reading some book that is giving you these strange notions. If you are a new Christian, maybe spend time on the milk of the word and then growth can happen.
No one is questioning your character, but rather trying to diagnose your struggle!
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Did you notice that Paul is speaking to those that believe? I would have to conclude that he is speaking about what could be called the deeper things of God when he says they have been revealed by the Spirit.
Since the Holy Spirit indwells those that believe then this would fit the text.
But we can also conclude that all those believers at one time were not believers just as Paul himself was not a believer.
So then they must have been able to understand the gospel message, the same one the rulers rejected, and then to have trusted in the risen Christ. And as we see in vs 12 they received the Holy Spirit from God so they could understand spiritual things that are given to those that believe.
And further we see in vs 14 that the unbeliever does not accept these deeper spiritual truths because they are given by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Yes I agree this is addressed to the saints. WE only can begin to correctly understand spiritual truth.
Yes we were all at one time ungodly, children of wrath, lost sheep,
SH, from what I read, it is the work of the Holy Spirit drawing a person unto the point that the Spirit of God performs a heart transplant, that rebel sinners are made saints. It is not that one day the ungodly wake up and say, I can understand this message savingly,if I want to...they cannot.
So I think we can agree right? Until the Spirit does the unseen work on the sinner, they remain outside the Kingdom.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The bible is clear that God has provide various means for man to know Him.
One being the conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit. If that is what you mean by the Holy Spirit drawing you then I agree.
But the person is responsible for their response to the drawing. They can hear and reject the gospel message or they can hear and accept it. The Spirit does not force them to choose either way.
God offers the gift of salvation but the person must accept it, if they do then He will save them. The result being that the person will be given a new heart.
SH...Pause....I do not agree with this, here is why...
1] general revelation] natural creation, conscience....let men know there is a God, a creator....this makes man know he is accountable, but this cannot save.
2] special revelation] This comes from God's word in scripture, revealing all we need for life and godliness. It is the new heart given by the Indwelling Holy Spirit, that enables us to grow.
Apart from the Spirit...no one would be saved
man apart from God ,does not have the Spirit...Romans 8:9
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Did not say that man is saved by knowing they is a God of creation etc.
The fact they know there is a God then opens them up to learning more but does not always result in them trusting in God.
Special revelation, as you call it, could be the gospel message, or even a direct visit from Jesus, which man can respond to and believe which leads to their salvation. Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10
For some reason those of the C/R religion do not think man can actually think or even have a free will with which to make the choice to trust in Jesus. That is not a biblical view but they will hold to it.
Those that have not trusted in God are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But you do not need to be indwelt by the Spirit before you can believe, that is just another of the C/R religions errors.
God has provided the means to know Him and to trust in Him but in the end it is still the man that has to make the choice, God does not do it for them.
Okay, fair enough
Okay, we agree here
Men must respond at some point yes. You think they can respond by themself> if that is not your belief, could you explain how the fall did not leave men as Dear sinners, spiritual corpses? Are you suggesting that Adam was only wounded, but did not die spiritually?
That is because they understand that mans will also suffered as part of spiritual death. The teaching of total depravity means that even mans will is dead in sin, bound, and alienated from the life of God. Eph2 describes this condition as living physically but without God, with no hope .in the world.
I agree to this.
I do not see the scripture say this. Without the power of the Spirit, a man does not do from death to life. Salvation is not natural, it is supernatural.
Or, it is truth that you do not welcome.
list those means for us...tell us how we do it without the spirit...let me ask you this question, why is these widows described this way;
3 Honour widows that are widows indeed.
4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
I say this is spiritual death...she is physically alive , but spiritually dead.
This is where you elevate a spiritually dead sinner, to life, without the Spirit.
If you say that, the salvation you describe is not of the Spirit, but is of the flesh! think it through.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Because the bible does not say that man is corpse, that is just another of the C/R fictions that they use to justify their religion.
Mankind are not Lazarus like as you keep claiming. Eph 2:1-3 makes for a rather lively corpse.
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
To die spiritually is to be separated from the loving relationship with God, it does not mean that one cannot respond to God. Gen 4:3-7 Total inability is another of the C/R fictions which the bible shows is wrong.
Granted no hope in this world. But man can hear and respond to the gospel message. Man still has a free will with which to respond to God or God is judging man for something he cannot do. Man is depraved is sinful but even then he can hear, he can learn, he can trust. Those of the C/R religion have gone to the extreme where God has not.
Did not say man can save himself, NO I did not. Only God can save and He will only save those that freely trust in Him. Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10, Joh 3:16-18 That is why man is judged for rejecting Christ.
The foundations of the C/R religion is from the 4th century when Augustine brought pagan philosophy into the church. The C/R religion has mixed scripture with some of those pagan philosophical views.
If the C/R religion were the truth then it would be clearly seen in scripture which it is not.
I have listed the various means many times, creation, conviction of sins, the gospel message,etc. God desires all to come to Him and uses many ways to draw mankind.
Tell me why you think man cannot respond to God?
Did I say man can make himself alive,NO I did not. Trusting in God does not make you alive, God makes you alive because you have trusted in Him.
If I say what? That man can hear the gospel, and believe the gospel and be saved by God.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
The bible is clear that man is responsible to make the choice. He can either reject Christ and be lost or accept Christ as Lord and be saved.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
You have still to defend your view. The bible is the standard not the C/R religion. So before you ask more questions defend your position from scripture not philosophy.
But it does.. the word used in Eph 2 is nekros = corpse] You were dead (nekros) in your trespasses (paraptoma) and sins - Were is in the present tense indicating we were continually dead. Dead was used literally to refer to a corpse. Paul is saying in effect "You were corpses!" Lehman Strauss...look it up, get back to me on this word...Nekros
You have not made a biblical case against this teaching have you?
Where does the bible say, what you say? Jesus said men are bound by sin in JN8...show me where the bible says men are not bound, but rather have a "free will". It is not inscripture.
No...God judges men for their love of sin
You offer no bible verse that says this. Men are told to repent and believe yes indeed. Nowhere does it say they have the ability to do that on their own...you post that, but the bible does not say it.
Not so. When I look at what they say, they show from the bible what mans condition is
SH, you are saying that very thing.. you said man can believe without being indwelt by the Spirit. Not possible, you say it is 1cor2:14 Go back a few responses offered and you said it.
You are putting conditions on God...The bible does not say what you say. Skipping the 1st 12 verses on Eph1, does not make it say what you post
No men are judged for dying in their sins plural. the result is they deny God's claims on them
This is a false charge. Most have not read Augustine. Most I know have read it in the bible, not in Augustine. In fact you repeat this because some false teachers suggest it. Be honest, have you read Augustine? have you arrived at this conclusion because you read Augustine himself?
It is seen when the Spirit illuminates a person, not seen by natural men devoid of the Spirit.
You have listed means...but not described how those means can be effectual apart from the Spirit...do you see that?
The fall has indeed left man, unable and unwilling to come. Man needs God to work in Him. He cannot do it himself, He is a spiritual corpse.. Nekros. SH, why do physical corpses, not resurrect themselves? when you answer this, then apply that answer to the spiritual corpse, you will come to truth on this.
your position indeed says that if you think it through
again, you make God have to wait or rely on a spiritual corpse, to make himself alive, then once that condition is met, then God might save him...this is not the biblical condition.
Again..what gives this corpse, ears to hear? Does the word, have some power by itself, apart from the Spirit?
By itself? or Does the Spirit have to give a new heart, so the corpse can receive it.
Did the corpse justify himself, or does the Spirit of God do it?
not in dispute. What is the root of the dispute, can the corpse raise himself. Could Lazarus raise himself with out the Spirit?
No...he already rejects Christ because that is what corpses do.
Now you are getting it.."that not of yourself"...SH, you and your position says, it is of yourself.
I am doing so by looking carefully at the verses. slow down, and take a look!
Thos who hold what you call C/r teach directly from scripture.
I have been doing that very thing
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Did you not read
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
For dead people they do seem to walk quite well. So you have misused the word.
You have not made a biblical case you dead as a corpse.
We see what God said to Adam [Gen 3:17-19] and then the C/R religion added to that because of the pagan philosophy that Augustine brought into the church.
How do you think man can hear and respond to the gospel?
If man does not have a free will then how is God just to judge them for not believing in His son?
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You are giving a lot of your philosophy but do not provide any scriptural support for you views.
The bible is the standard we are to go by not the C/R philosophy.
I posted about two verses, in my post #42. The response was a long, 13 or so point post.
I said 1 Corinthians 2:10 does not support the false claim that the lost cannot understand spiritual milk. The response was that the Spirit understands all spiritual things, which has nothing to do with t he issue.
I said 1 Corinthians 2:12 indicates we have been given the Spirit of God so we can understand spiritual solid food, the deep things of God.
Posting an avalanche of off topic word salads rather than addressing the issue is not useful.
The some of the lost, soils 2, 3, and 4 from Matthew 13, can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel. That is why Paul used spiritual milk to speak to men of flesh.
So you are saying unsaved natural men are "walking quite well" with Jesus? here is what you said..read it again! if they are walking quite well, why will they be cast away into second death. Your statement is 100% false. You need to see this, to come to truth.
No, I am reading what Ephesians says. without God, and without hope in the world.. again stop and read it again...it says that...you say dead spiritual corpses are "walking quite well"...That is what you have said...Who is closer to Eph2?
Ephesians uses that exact word...can you show where it does not mean corpse as Nekros was used?
God said, dying thou shalt die, Augustine did not say that, he read it right here in Genesis. Stop using Augustine as an excuse to turn from scripture SH!
It is preached, then the Spirit gives him a new heart to welcome the truth, that is the only way it happens, that is what scripture declares is the reason we have been given the indwelling Spirit.
Because they have a self will, that is in rebellion to God. Free will does not exist, self will does.
Correct statement of scripture, but it does not take away from the fact the Spirit has to be involved
Nothing I said was my own thoughts but scripture based thought, so you make another excuse...I am seeing a pattern of why truth eludes you on this. You repeat the same error, over and over
Yes, it should be, the bible, not your excuses
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You said man was like a corpse, could do nothing and I post scripture that disproves your comment
So you are making the 100% false statements. You are just following your philosophy rather than the bible.
I have read it many times and it still says the same thing, man can hear and respond to the gospel message and be saved.
Again just your C/R teaching that is leading you to a false understanding of the text.
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
That is unless you think a corpse can walk around. You still cannot get past the C/R philosophy.
Try just reading and trusting the word of God.
Did Adam die as in become a corpse at that moment? Doubt it as he had at least two children which would be quite a feet for a corpse.
So you do not trust the bible obviously.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So your saying that the person is saved before they believe.
You are trusting men, Bottner or Sproul not the bible.
That is a major problem for the C/R's they have put their trust in the wrong thing, man.
If free will does not exist then you have no ability to make a comment as that would require that you be able to evaluate information and that requires a free will. The only other option is that all of your responses have been predetermined in which case you still cannot express an opinion as that would require the ability to evaluate information and you would not have that ability.
God will influence but will not force or make the choice for you. It still comes down to the person freely making the choice.
You claim to follow scripture but have yet to provide any support for that claim.
The C/R view is philosophical not biblical.
I have used the bible and you have used your philosophy.
Since you cannot support your C/R religion with clear contextual scripture then you are just blowing smoke.
You may be satisfied with that but those of us that trust the word of God are not.
Prove your case if you can.
Adam when he sinned, experienced spiritual death, and later physical death, as he could still function from the flesh, but loss connection to God
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Just as I have been saying. Spiritual death does not mean that they cannot turn to God in faith.
Gen 4:4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;
Gen 4:5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Cain & Abel are clear examples of this.
So we see that the total inability view of the C/R religion is wrong.
Per Jesus, he chose all of the 12 Apostles, and Paul, and they did not first chose him
Are you reading my posts? I did not say anything except I quoted the verse and showed readers the word in Eph.2 means corpse. You posted no scripture that says the word used was not Nekros=corpse, so try again. It is you who are not dealing with Nekros it seems.
False again, I did noy insert any philosophy, but rather posted on this scripture, I did not make any of my own comment, but if you have no real answer, we can let the readers determine what is what.
Where does it say that natural men apart from the Spirit of God receive it?
I did not mention any teaching other than what the text says. Are you sure you are not just making excuses and trying to skip away from Nekros?
Yes, spiritual corpses
1 tim5:6 Paul says they do
3 Honour widows that are widows indeed.
4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
I did not quote from any C/R source, just scripture dealing with Nekros. Are you sure you are not hiding behind these false issues you suggest?
That is what I am doing. you seem to be avoiding these texts however!
Yes, He died Spiritually that day, with Physical death to follow...sure did.
Physically alive, mentally alert, and spiritually dead
Sorry, that is a slanderous accusation, when I have offered verses. Why do you go to such dark thoughts?
yes, I agree with this, but it does not tie in the how, just the result. The Spirit is how!
I believe they happen at the exact same point in time, instantly
I have not looked at either of those men on this. Another excuse by you?
No..I find that all faithful ones are word centered to the max.
Scripture says we have self will. I posted that earlier. You can ignore it if you want to, the readers will see what you are doing,lol
Where do you see such a fatalistic idea in scripture. God knows our thoughts, but He does not put them there, we do! will you try every loophole under the Sun, trying to resist the truth?
This has been addressed in full. No need to repeat it, as evidently you were unable or unwilling to perceive it.
it is already done...how many examples do you need? I said it meant a corpse, and posted the meaning...
I am not sure what you mean by that, You cannot defend your assertion.
Take a poll, I think others have seen what has happened here!
Another excuse and attempted evasion. I get it. You cannot answer to these verses, so you try an attack, that has failed.
It has clearly been proven to any who look objectively.