Does Free Will Limit God?

[Ben1445]

Huh ? What in the world are you talking about now ? Nothing about the text.

Do you pay attention at all??
It shows that you are more interested in making others look dumb than you are in the conversation.

Are you a sinner. have you been reconciled?
If you are a sinner still, but you have been saved, you are a present tense reconciled sinner.

Or are you teaching sinless perfection?

 

[Brightfame52]

If you were interested in listening to anybody, we could have a discussion. since you don't appear to be interested in doing anything but magnifying your own intelligence, I don't know what I can tell you that you would be interested in hearing.
All I can say is that the gospel is simple. Calvinists do not understand it because they try to overcomplicate it. Every time I sit down with a calvinist and I ever begin to make sense to them, I am told that I just don't understand. That salvation is difficult to understand is to have a different definition of salvation.

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

1 Corinthians 1:27 (KJV) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


1 Corinthians 1:17 (KJV) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1 Corinthians 2:4 (KJV) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:


Maybe it doesn't make sense because you rely on man's wisdom for your salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

From what I have read I think it is rather

Ephesians 4:14 (KJV) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

the sleight of men refers to Calvin, and men like him who would limit the reach of the grace of God from those who were intended to be its recipients.
Sleight of men takes the plain meaning of the word world and turns it into some other different meaning that only the enlightened specially privileged calvinist can understand and not children.

And your point ?

 

[Ben1445]

And your point ?

duh

 

[JesusFan]

Thank you Brothers @Charlie24 and @Silverhair for sharing your insight. I understand where both of you are coming from and I believe you have thought through your positions with the highest degree of integrity. I'll share with you how I see it.

When I look at these texts, I see an already accomplished reality.

1 John 2:2 (ESV) - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Matthew 1:21 (ESV) - She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

Hebrews 10:14 (ESV) - For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Notice the tenses. He is this. He will do this. He has done that. I do not believe it is possible to understand it to mean that He might do this and could do that when following the grammar.

But, for the sake of argument, if I were to affirm that the atonement was only something that is made available, and we must freely choose to accept it before it can be applied, I see it presenting a number of other problems.

John 10:27 (ESV) - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Romans 8:30 (ESV) - For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV) - Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

How can God know who His sheep are unless their identity has already been established? How can God have foreknowledge of those He intends to be conformed to the image of His Son if their own act of belief is what causes them to be revealed to Him? How can God make a choice before the foundation of the world if the intended result may or may not come to pass?

These aren't the only reasons, but I hope this helps you to understand that we monergists have a good reason to believe what we believe and have carefully examined our position also. The main difference between us is that we believe that faith can't be exercised unless the ability to do so has been given by God. Synergists believe that faith is something they can exercise by their own will. The good news is that we can still be united and share the same Gospel message with anybody we encounter—that if you believe in Jesus Christ, you will be saved.

Those of us who indeed see the Doctrines of Grace being expressed in the bible to us would say that by very definition of what Paul stated in Romans 8 concerning the redeemed, that salvation is really for the saints "a done deal"

 

[Layman]

Here's the thing, Layman. God knows through His foreknowledge everyone who will be born into this world, He knows who will be saved and who will not before they are born.

God has not predestined the individual to be saved, as far as who will or will not be saved, He has predestined man to a plan of redemption to be conformed into the image of Christ.

Rom. 8:29
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Before I was born God foreknew I would repent and believe the Gospel, He predestined for me a way that I could be saved through His plan of Redemption in Christ Jesus.

"that he might be the firstborn among many brethren," means that Christ is the Captain of the redemption plan having paid the price for our sins on the Cross, which made our salvation possible.

I believe that "foreknow" in this sense is personal, not something that God simply possesses knowledge about. It's the same kind of "knowing" that God had in regard to Abraham in Genesis 18:19.

(KJV) - For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

(ESV) - For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.

Likewise, in Ephesians 1:4, He chose us in Him as the foundation of every blessing we receive, and God's decision to do so was made before the world was made and before any of us existed. By necessity, there has to be a people to be conformed to the image of His Son and God has to know exactly who they are.

In conclusion, I believe the idea that God first looks into the future and sees that we choose Him, then He chooses us on that basis, overthrows Paul's argument that it is not human action that will activate God's mercy.

Romans 9:16 (ESV) - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

 

[Charlie24]

I believe that "foreknow" in this sense is personal, not something that God simply possesses knowledge about. It's the same kind of "knowing" that God had in regard to Abraham in Genesis 18:19.

(KJV) - For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

(ESV) - For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.

Likewise, in Ephesians 1:4, He chose us in Him as the foundation of every blessing we receive, and God's decision to do so was made before the world was made and before any of us existed. By necessity, there has to be a people to be conformed to the image of His Son and God has to know exactly who they are.

In conclusion, I believe the idea that God first looks into the future and sees that we choose Him, then He chooses us on that basis, overthrows Paul's argument that it is not human action that will activate God's mercy.

Romans 9:16 (ESV) - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

As I had thought, we are worlds apart. But that's ok, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I don't know you but from your posts I think you will at least agree with this.

 

[Layman]

As I had thought, we are worlds apart. But that's ok, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I don't know you but from your posts I think you will at least agree with this.

The root of our disagreement will come down to what a spiritually dead sinner can and can't do, but yes, we are equally saved by the same grace through faith.

 

[Charlie24]

The root of our disagreement will come down to what a spiritually dead sinner can and can't do, but yes, we are equally saved by the same grace through faith.

I would rather we focus on the grace through faith. The Calvinists are almost as hardheaded and me.

 

[Layman]

I would rather we focus on the grace through faith. The Calvinists are almost as hardheaded and me.

I’ve never read Calvin, so I can’t really call myself a Calvinist. I’ve looked over John Gill’s commentary to help shed light on some difficult passages. I’ve also found Ryrie and Wiersbe to be very helpful as well, though I’m not a dispensationalist.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nothing limits God the Creator of life. He is all powerful.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The root of our disagreement will come down to what a spiritually dead sinner can and can't do, but yes, we are equally saved by the same grace through faith.

The spiritually dead have chosen to reject God, thus making them sons of iniquity (the devil). So to them, their future is the lake of fire unless they heed the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brightfame52]

The root of our disagreement will come down to what a spiritually dead sinner can and can't do, but yes, we are equally saved by the same grace through faith.

Can a spiritually dead sinner believe in Christ, have faith in Christ ?

 

[Ben1445]

Nothing limits God the Creator of life. He is all powerful.

Psalms 78:41
Yea, they turned back and tempted God,
and limited the Holy One of Israel.

 

[Ben1445]

Can a spiritually dead sinner believe in Christ, have faith in Christ ?

Yes. In trusting Christ, he is promised life.
Can these bones live? Yes.

 

[Ben1445]

I’ve never read Calvin, so I can’t really call myself a Calvinist. I’ve looked over John Gill’s commentary to help shed light on some difficult passages. I’ve also found Ryrie and Wiersbe to be very helpful as well, though I’m not a dispensationalist.

Gill is strongly Calvinist and will reinterpret Scripture to fit his Calvinist views. I use Gill quite often. I am not a Calvinist or a Gillinist.

 

[Silverhair]

Can a spiritually dead sinner believe in Christ, have faith in Christ ?

Well since we at one time were all separated from God by our sin/trespasses it is evident that the sinner can actually believe in God and be saved.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Eph 2:4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes. In trusting Christ, he is promised life.
Can these bones live? Yes.

I dont believe a spiritually dead person can perform any spiritual obedience. Spiritual obedience is generated by the Spirit 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Spiritual obedience comes from a sanctified heart

 

[Brightfame52]

Well since we at one time were all separated from God by our sin/trespasses it is evident that the sinner can actually believe in God and be saved.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Eph 2:4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

Before they believe in Vs 13 they were made spiritually alive, quickened by Grace in Vs 5 they weren't dead in sin

 

[Brightfame52]

Psalms 78:41
Yea, they turned back and tempted God,
and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Have you studied that to get a proper understanding ? In which way did they limit the Holy One of Israel ?

 

[Silverhair]

Before they believe in Vs 13 they were made spiritually alive, quickened by Grace in Vs 5 they weren't dead in sin

So you have them spiritually alive/saved before they believe BF.

BF vs 4-5 is telling us what those that are saved are predestined for, vs 13-14 tells us how we can become one of the saved ones.