God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

[Dave...]

Im familiar

Hi bright

The point being, if the remnant in vs 11:4-5 are already believe and are saved. Then the ones that are being provoked to jealousy Vs. 11, and the ones spoken of later to hopefully be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief vs. 23, must be different.

 

[Dave...]

Okay Faith comes with quickening by the Spirit, in fact its a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

In Galatians 5:22, I think the idea is faithfulness.

In Romans 5:1-2, we have access to that grace by faith. Ephesians 2:8 says the same thing that we are saved by grace, through faith. In other words, faith takes u to that grace. Galatians 3:3 Paul asks the question, did we receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or the hearing of faith? The answer is that we received the Spirit by faith. Receiving the Spirit is how we are raised up with Him and given new life per Ephesians 2:1-2. Vs. 5-6 says this about that new life - "even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,". This placing into, or baptism, implied in Ephesians 2:1-2, is spoken about further and is the result of faith as Paul tells us in Galatians 3:22. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. And a bit later, he says this 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

The life comes as a result of faith. What God does before that can still be a question, but the new birth is the result of faith, because the new birth comes from being immersed into oneness with Jesus, placed into Christ. As He and the Father are one, we are also one with Him when we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling, called the 'placing into with the Holy Spirit', or the 'immersion with the Holy Spirit', or the 'baptism with the Holy Spirit'. That's what gives us the life. The baptism, the receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is always a result of faith. Also consider Eph 2:1-2 with these passages -- 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Col. 2:10-14.

 

[Van]

You sound much like @Brightfame52. You both seem to think everything is about you. And neither of you actually read a post.

What do you think "For the same reason he spoke to those he called "infants in Christ"." means Van.

Read what Paul wrote not what you think he wrote.

More of the same, addressing me and answering a question with a question. This is all they have, folks.

Paul spoke to unregenerates using spiritual milk. The fundamentals of the gospel are spiritual milk. This not a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[Dave...]

Dave that is the problem, unbelief. They knew the OT scriptures, they had seen and heard of the miracles and yet they continued to deny the truth.

God let them strengthen themselves in their unbelief just as He had done with Pharaoh.

Joh 12:28 "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
Joh 12:29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him."

None are so blind as those that will not see or deaf as those that will not hear.

@Silverhair

I think that we're on the same page, but there is some overlapping in the conversations going on. Romans tells us that this hardening was only partial, and while earned by these same unbelievers, was also used to usher in the Gentiles. Those passages spoken of as referring to mans hopeless state, called total depravity, are 1) it also appears that later those same people are being provoked to jealousy by God so that they do not continue in unbelief and can be grafted back in. and 2), when God does blind them, it's always judicial, in other words, they earned it.

But my point of contention with Eternally grateful was with his definition of God hardening these unbelievers in post #23. Jesus specifically spoke in parables so that in seeing they cannot see, and hearing they cannot hear. And God hardened these people for a specific reason as stated in John in the passage below. It may only be for a time, but they were specifically blinded and hardened to keep them seeing and hearing and as a result, to keep them from believing. Ultimately, they would appear to have had a chance to be provoked to jealousy and grafted back in.

John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."

 

[Silverhair]

the milk is the gospel message..

meat would be more advanced messages.

a non believer needs milk to understand the gospel so they can make a choice. Jesus called it bread. or his flesh and blood.

Agreed, but some believers do not get past the milk with out proper discipleship.

 

[Silverhair]

No the natural man cannot spiritually understand the gospel, he doesnt have the Spirit.

You better do some more bible study BF.

The fleshly man can hear the gospel message, the power of God for salvation, and respond in faith. When they do they are then indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

More of the same, addressing me and answering a question with a question. This is all they have, folks.

Paul spoke to unregenerates using spiritual milk. The fundamentals of the gospel are spiritual milk. This not a difficult concept to grasp.

That is what I said but it seems you can not understand clear english.

What do you think "For the same reason he spoke to those he called "infants in Christ"." means Van.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed, but some believers do not get past the milk with out proper discipleship.

or proper growth..

 

[Brightfame52]

Hi bright

The point being, if the remnant in vs 11:4-5 are already believe and are saved. Then the ones that are being provoked to jealousy Vs. 11, and the ones spoken of later to hopefully be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief vs. 23, must be different.

Not all of the remnant were already saved, the remnant was also part of them who would believe later provoked to jealousy and be grafted in when Jesus gives them Faith. But the judicially hardened were not part of the remnant of grace, they will never be given faith, they fall into this category 2 Thess 2:10-12


10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Brightfame52]

In Galatians 5:22, I think the idea is faithfulness.

In Romans 5:1-2, we have access to that grace by faith. Ephesians 2:8 says the same thing that we are saved by grace, through faith. In other words, faith takes u to that grace. Galatians 3:3 Paul asks the question, did we receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or the hearing of faith? The answer is that we received the Spirit by faith. Receiving the Spirit is how we are raised up with Him and given new life per Ephesians 2:1-2. Vs. 5-6 says this about that new life - "even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,". This placing into, or baptism, implied in Ephesians 2:1-2, is spoken about further and is the result of faith as Paul tells us in Galatians 3:22. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. And a bit later, he says this 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

The life comes as a result of faith. What God does before that can still be a question, but the new birth is the result of faith, because the new birth comes from being immersed into oneness with Jesus, placed into Christ. As He and the Father are one, we are also one with Him when we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling, called the 'placing into with the Holy Spirit', or the 'immersion with the Holy Spirit', or the 'baptism with the Holy Spirit'. That's what gives us the life. The baptism, the receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is always a result of faith. Also consider Eph 2:1-2 with these passages -- 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Col. 2:10-14.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, translating it faithfulness doesnt change that its Faith

 

[Brightfame52]

You better do some more bible study BF.

The fleshly man can hear the gospel message, the power of God for salvation, and respond in faith. When they do they are then indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Im good, Ive been by the grace of God studying scripture for over four decades.

 

[Silverhair]

I think that we're on the same page, but there is some overlapping in the conversations going on. Romans tells us that this hardening was only partial, and while earned by these same unbelievers, was also used to usher in the Gentiles. Those passages spoken of as referring to mans hopeless state, called total depravity, are 1) it also appears that later those same people are being provoked to jealousy by God so that they do not continue in unbelief and can be grafted back in. and 2), when God does blind them, it's always judicial, in other words, they earned it.

Granted not all the Jews were hardened as some did actually believe in Christ at that time. Even those that did not at that time believe could, as we see in scripture, come to faith in Him.

We say the judicial blinding with Pharaoh and also with the leaders that crucified Christ.

But my point of contention with Eternally grateful was with his definition of God hardening these unbelievers in post #23. Jesus specifically spoke in parables so that in seeing they cannot see, and hearing they cannot hear. And God hardened these people for a specific reason as stated in John in the passage below. It may only be for a time, but they were specifically blinded and hardened to keep them seeing and hearing and as a result, to keep them from believing. Ultimately, they would appear to have had a chance to be provoked to jealousy and grafted back in.

I looked at @Eternally Grateful's post #23
"to harden ones heart means to strengthen a person in what they believe its not keeping the person from truth. It is continually speaking truth to them, so hearing they do not hear, and seeing they do not see.
so God is not keeping anything from anyone. No one will have an excuse on judgment day"

When we look at Pharaoh we see this clearly. The truth was there for him to see but he rejected that truth. We see the same in the Jews leaders and many of the Jews themselves.

The Jews had their the OT and had seen and heard of the things Christ had done. Did God make it so they could not see or hear, no, what happened was that He allowed them to harden their own hearts, see Pharaoh.

They had cut themselves of but God was always reaching out to them so that they could return.

 

[Silverhair]

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, translating it faithfulness doesnt change that its Faith

BF one obtains the fruit of the Spirit after they are saved not so they will be saved.

The faithfulness is what we as saved believers exhibit.

We are saved by the grace of God because we believe. The C/R religion has made a complete mess of the gospel and salvation. You have trusted in your man-made religion and thrown out the word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Im good, Ive been by the grace of God studying scripture for over four decades.

It seems you have studied your man-made philosophy for the last four decades and ignored the word of God.

 

[Zaatar71]

More of the same, addressing me and answering a question with a question. This is all they have, folks.

Paul spoke to unregenerates using spiritual milk. The fundamentals of the gospel are spiritual milk. This not a difficult concept to grasp.

That is not found in scripture at all. You have invented another gospel of milk which only you know about!

 

[Dave...]

Dave it seems to me that you are waffling between two views. You want God to determine all things but not those that make Him look bad.
God is sovereign, that is not in question, and in His sovereignty He has given man a free will. Did God cause Christ to be crucified or did man in his free will do it?

Whether you say God cause it or you say He positively allowed it, unless I am misunderstanding what you mean by that term, you still have made Him the author of the greatest sin in history.

@Silverhair, do you hold Biblical consistency over theological consistency?

God is sovereign over all things because He "works all things according to the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:11). And we know that those same things, "all things work together for good to those who love God" (Romans 8:28). We see this at the cross, the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world (Revelation 13:8), was predetermined according to His eternal decree. That worked out for our good, just as He promised that it would. We see it in Joseph being sold into slavery, which saved his people from starvation, and we even see it in Israel being partially blinded as judgment, which was a blessing to the Gentiles. God is working good in all things, even the sin that He ordained, but did not predestine. This is hard to grasp, or reason, but this is what Scripture teaches. The common mind set of the Arminian view is that unless God causes it, He cannot be sovereign over it., I disagree with that logic and reasoning. By that same reasoning one would need to throw away the Trinity also, because I haven't met anyone who can explain it rationally. Look at Genesis 50:20, Joseph to his brothers....

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

God is not responsible for their motives, which was sin. He sovereign over it.

The day that we were born and the day that we die, have all been ordained from the foundations of the world. This is not God peeking into the future to see what we will do, or what will happen, He knows because He is all knowing. He already knows what we will do before we do it. There are no angels running around heaven yelling "plan B, plan B". It's hard to rationalize, but it is Scripturally accurate. Biblical consistency must always be more important than tradition, even if it leaves questions unanswered. Compatibilism is just a term to describe two Biblical truths, that is God is sovereign over everything, and man is responsible for his sin. Anything that comes are way should fall under the category of judgment. We all deserve judgment. But that's why mercy is called mercy, because we don't deserve any of it.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair, do you hold Biblical consistency over theological consistency?

God is sovereign over all things because He "works all things according to the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:11). And we know that those same things, "all things work together for good to those who love God" (Romans 8:28). We see this at the cross, the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world (Revelation 13:8), was predetermined according to His eternal decree. That worked out for our good, just as He promised that it would. We see it in Joseph being sold into slavery, which saved his people from starvation, and we even see it in Israel being partially blinded as judgment, which was a blessing to the Gentiles. God is working good in all things, even the sin that He ordained, but did not predestine. This is hard to grasp, or reason, but this is what Scripture teaches. The common mind set of the Arminian view is that unless God causes it, He cannot be sovereign over it., I disagree with that logic and reasoning. By that same reasoning one would need to throw away the Trinity also, because I haven't met anyone who can explain it rationally. Look at Genesis 50:20, Joseph to his brothers....

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

God is not responsible for their motives, which was sin. He sovereign over it.

The day that we were born and the day that we die, have all been ordained from the foundations of the world. This is not God peeking into the future to see what we will do, or what will happen, He knows because He is all knowing. He already knows what we will do before we do it. There are no angels running around heaven yelling "plan B, plan B". It's hard to rationalize, but it is Scripturally accurate. Biblical consistency must always be more important than tradition, even if it leaves questions unanswered. Compatibilism is just a term to describe two Biblical truths, that is God is sovereign over everything, and man is responsible for his sin. Anything that comes are way should fall under the category of judgment. We all deserve judgment. But that's why mercy is called mercy, because we don't deserve any of it.

First what do you mean by theological consistency? Not a term I have seen batter around before.

Second You made a factual error in this comment "The common mind set of the Arminian view is that unless God causes it, He cannot be sovereign over it.,"

That is the C/R view as can be clearly seen in the WCF/LBCF. They are the ones that require God to determine all things and deny the actual free will of man.

As for your support of Compatibilism it does not describe biblical truths but it is the attempt of some to have it do so.

Compatibilism, in philosophy, [the C/R view] is the view that free will and determinism are compatible. It argues that even if all events are causally determined, including human actions, we can still have free will and be morally responsible for our choices. This perspective often involves redefining or reinterpreting what it means to have free will.

Compatibilism, despite what the name suggests, doesn’t reconcile free will and determinism. Compatibilism, at most, would explain why we feel like we’re free when we make our actions even though we’re determined. But it doesn’t actually let us affirm the two propositions; (A) Man is determined, and (B) Man is free. Why? Because on compatibilism, man still cannot choose between alternatives.
In other words you cannot choose anything except what you were determined {by God} to choose.

You can go to https://www.monergismDOTcom/topics/free-will/compatibilism if you think I have been unfair to that view.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF one obtains the fruit of the Spirit after they are saved not so they will be saved.

The faithfulness is what we as saved believers exhibit.

We are saved by the grace of God because we believe. The C/R religion has made a complete mess of the gospel and salvation. You have trusted in your man-made religion and thrown out the word of God.

The fruit of the Spirit comes when the Spirit does His Saving work Titus 3:5

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Then when regenerated and renewed by the Spirit, Faith is the fruit.

 

[Brightfame52]

It seems you have studied your man-made philosophy for the last four decades and ignored the word of God.

lol, we will see about that on the Day of Judgment my friend, and find out who promotes a man made philosophy.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Eternally Grateful

a non believer needs milk to understand the gospel so they can make a choice. Jesus called it bread. or his flesh and blood.

Thats false, a unbeliever first needs a new regenerated heart to understand the gospel and bring forth fruit, like faith Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Non of the other heaers are said to have heard and understandeth, but the good ground or heart hearer. The good ground/heart represents the new regenerated heart, otherwise mans natural heart is evil