God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

[Dave...]

Im familiar

Hi bright

The point being, if the remnant in vs 11:4-5 are already believe and are saved. Then the ones that are being provoked to jealousy Vs. 11, and the ones spoken of later to hopefully be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief vs. 23, must be different.

 

[Dave...]

Okay Faith comes with quickening by the Spirit, in fact its a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

In Galatians 5:22, I think the idea is faithfulness.

In Romans 5:1-2, we have access to that grace by faith. Ephesians 2:8 says the same thing that we are saved by grace, through faith. In other words, faith takes u to that grace. Galatians 3:3 Paul asks the question, did we receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or the hearing of faith? The answer is that we received the Spirit by faith. Receiving the Spirit is how we are raised up with Him and given new life per Ephesians 2:1-2. Vs. 5-6 says this about that new life - "even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,". This placing into, or baptism, implied in Ephesians 2:1-2, is spoken about further and is the result of faith as Paul tells us in Galatians 3:22. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. And a bit later, he says this 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

The life comes as a result of faith. What God does before that can still be a question, but the new birth is the result of faith, because the new birth comes from being immersed into oneness with Jesus, placed into Christ. As He and the Father are one, we are also one with Him when we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling, called the 'placing into with the Holy Spirit', or the 'immersion with the Holy Spirit', or the 'baptism with the Holy Spirit'. That's what gives us the life. The baptism, the receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is always a result of faith. Also consider Eph 2:1-2 with these passages -- 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Col. 2:10-14.

 

[Van]

You sound much like @Brightfame52. You both seem to think everything is about you. And neither of you actually read a post.

What do you think "For the same reason he spoke to those he called "infants in Christ"." means Van.

Read what Paul wrote not what you think he wrote.

More of the same, addressing me and answering a question with a question. This is all they have, folks.

Paul spoke to unregenerates using spiritual milk. The fundamentals of the gospel are spiritual milk. This not a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[Dave...]

Dave that is the problem, unbelief. They knew the OT scriptures, they had seen and heard of the miracles and yet they continued to deny the truth.

God let them strengthen themselves in their unbelief just as He had done with Pharaoh.

Joh 12:28 "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
Joh 12:29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him."

None are so blind as those that will not see or deaf as those that will not hear.

@Silverhair

I think that we're on the same page, but there is some overlapping in the conversations going on. Romans tells us that this hardening was only partial, and while earned by these same unbelievers, was also used to usher in the Gentiles. Those passages spoken of as referring to mans hopeless state, called total depravity, are 1) it also appears that later those same people are being provoked to jealousy by God so that they do not continue in unbelief and can be grafted back in. and 2), when God does blind them, it's always judicial, in other words, they earned it.

But my point of contention with Eternally grateful was with his definition of God hardening these unbelievers in post #23. Jesus specifically spoke in parables so that in seeing they cannot see, and hearing they cannot hear. And God hardened these people for a specific reason as stated in John in the passage below. It may only be for a time, but they were specifically blinded and hardened to keep them seeing and hearing and as a result, to keep them from believing. Ultimately, they would appear to have had a chance to be provoked to jealousy and grafted back in.

John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."

 

[Silverhair]

the milk is the gospel message..

meat would be more advanced messages.

a non believer needs milk to understand the gospel so they can make a choice. Jesus called it bread. or his flesh and blood.

Agreed, but some believers do not get past the milk with out proper discipleship.

 

[Silverhair]

No the natural man cannot spiritually understand the gospel, he doesnt have the Spirit.

You better do some more bible study BF.

The fleshly man can hear the gospel message, the power of God for salvation, and respond in faith. When they do they are then indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

More of the same, addressing me and answering a question with a question. This is all they have, folks.

Paul spoke to unregenerates using spiritual milk. The fundamentals of the gospel are spiritual milk. This not a difficult concept to grasp.

That is what I said but it seems you can not understand clear english.

What do you think "For the same reason he spoke to those he called "infants in Christ"." means Van.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed, but some believers do not get past the milk with out proper discipleship.

or proper growth..

 

[Brightfame52]

Hi bright

The point being, if the remnant in vs 11:4-5 are already believe and are saved. Then the ones that are being provoked to jealousy Vs. 11, and the ones spoken of later to hopefully be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief vs. 23, must be different.

Not all of the remnant were already saved, the remnant was also part of them who would believe later provoked to jealousy and be grafted in when Jesus gives them Faith. But the judicially hardened were not part of the remnant of grace, they will never be given faith, they fall into this category 2 Thess 2:10-12


10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Brightfame52]

In Galatians 5:22, I think the idea is faithfulness.

In Romans 5:1-2, we have access to that grace by faith. Ephesians 2:8 says the same thing that we are saved by grace, through faith. In other words, faith takes u to that grace. Galatians 3:3 Paul asks the question, did we receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or the hearing of faith? The answer is that we received the Spirit by faith. Receiving the Spirit is how we are raised up with Him and given new life per Ephesians 2:1-2. Vs. 5-6 says this about that new life - "even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,". This placing into, or baptism, implied in Ephesians 2:1-2, is spoken about further and is the result of faith as Paul tells us in Galatians 3:22. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. And a bit later, he says this 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

The life comes as a result of faith. What God does before that can still be a question, but the new birth is the result of faith, because the new birth comes from being immersed into oneness with Jesus, placed into Christ. As He and the Father are one, we are also one with Him when we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling, called the 'placing into with the Holy Spirit', or the 'immersion with the Holy Spirit', or the 'baptism with the Holy Spirit'. That's what gives us the life. The baptism, the receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is always a result of faith. Also consider Eph 2:1-2 with these passages -- 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Col. 2:10-14.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, translating it faithfulness doesnt change that its Faith

 

[Brightfame52]

You better do some more bible study BF.

The fleshly man can hear the gospel message, the power of God for salvation, and respond in faith. When they do they are then indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Im good, Ive been by the grace of God studying scripture for over four decades.

 

[Silverhair]

I think that we're on the same page, but there is some overlapping in the conversations going on. Romans tells us that this hardening was only partial, and while earned by these same unbelievers, was also used to usher in the Gentiles. Those passages spoken of as referring to mans hopeless state, called total depravity, are 1) it also appears that later those same people are being provoked to jealousy by God so that they do not continue in unbelief and can be grafted back in. and 2), when God does blind them, it's always judicial, in other words, they earned it.

Granted not all the Jews were hardened as some did actually believe in Christ at that time. Even those that did not at that time believe could, as we see in scripture, come to faith in Him.

We say the judicial blinding with Pharaoh and also with the leaders that crucified Christ.

But my point of contention with Eternally grateful was with his definition of God hardening these unbelievers in post #23. Jesus specifically spoke in parables so that in seeing they cannot see, and hearing they cannot hear. And God hardened these people for a specific reason as stated in John in the passage below. It may only be for a time, but they were specifically blinded and hardened to keep them seeing and hearing and as a result, to keep them from believing. Ultimately, they would appear to have had a chance to be provoked to jealousy and grafted back in.

I looked at @Eternally Grateful's post #23
"to harden ones heart means to strengthen a person in what they believe its not keeping the person from truth. It is continually speaking truth to them, so hearing they do not hear, and seeing they do not see.
so God is not keeping anything from anyone. No one will have an excuse on judgment day"

When we look at Pharaoh we see this clearly. The truth was there for him to see but he rejected that truth. We see the same in the Jews leaders and many of the Jews themselves.

The Jews had their the OT and had seen and heard of the things Christ had done. Did God make it so they could not see or hear, no, what happened was that He allowed them to harden their own hearts, see Pharaoh.

They had cut themselves of but God was always reaching out to them so that they could return.

 

[Silverhair]

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, translating it faithfulness doesnt change that its Faith

BF one obtains the fruit of the Spirit after they are saved not so they will be saved.

The faithfulness is what we as saved believers exhibit.

We are saved by the grace of God because we believe. The C/R religion has made a complete mess of the gospel and salvation. You have trusted in your man-made religion and thrown out the word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Im good, Ive been by the grace of God studying scripture for over four decades.

It seems you have studied your man-made philosophy for the last four decades and ignored the word of God.

 

[Zaatar71]

More of the same, addressing me and answering a question with a question. This is all they have, folks.

Paul spoke to unregenerates using spiritual milk. The fundamentals of the gospel are spiritual milk. This not a difficult concept to grasp.

That is not found in scripture at all. You have invented another gospel of milk which only you know about!