A Perfect Righteousness

[Van]

I did what you did, and with better translations.

Yet another post of derailment, addressing petty bickering rather than the topic. This is what false teachers do,

You claim the Greek word order governs phraseology. But no mention of the highly respected translations, NKJV and NASB clearly indicated that those termed "the called" referred to their being set apart in Christ.

1) The word order in Greek does not govern the word order in English.

2) Jude 1:1 clearly teaches "the called" are those God has set apart in Christ.

3) "The called" undergo the washing of regeneration once transferred into Christ, and arise a new creation, made perfect and righteous by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yet another post of derailment, addressing petty bickering rather than the topic. This is what false teachers do,

You claim the Greek word order governs phraseology. But no mention of the highly respected translations, NKJV and NASB clearly indicated that those termed "the called" referred to their being set apart in Christ.

1) The word order in Greek does not govern the word order in English.

2) Jude 1:1 clearly teaches "the called" are those God has set apart in Christ.

3) "The called" undergo the washing of regeneration once transferred into Christ, and arise a new creation, made perfect and righteous by the blood of the Lamb.

We have the pot calling the kettle black lol

 

[Van]

We have the pot calling the kettle black lol

Yet another post of derailment, addressing petty bickering rather than the topic. This is what false teachers do,

You claim the Greek word order governs phraseology. But no mention of the highly respected translations, NKJV and NASB clearly indicated that those termed "the called" referred to their being set apart in Christ.


1) The word order in Greek does not govern the word order in English.

2) Jude 1:1 clearly teaches "the called" are those God has set apart in Christ.

3) "The called" undergo the washing of regeneration once transferred into Christ, and arise a new creation, made perfect and righteous by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yet another post of derailment, addressing petty bickering rather than the topic. This is what false teachers do,

You claim the Greek word order governs phraseology. But no mention of the highly respected translations, NKJV and NASB clearly indicated that those termed "the called" referred to their being set apart in Christ.


1) The word order in Greek does not govern the word order in English.

2) Jude 1:1 clearly teaches "the called" are those God has set apart in Christ.

3) "The called" undergo the washing of regeneration once transferred into Christ, and arise a new creation, made perfect and righteous by the blood of the Lamb.

I used the KJV and The Greek Text

 

[Van]

I used the KJV and The Greek Text

Neither supports your claim. The NKJV uses your "Greek Text" and supports the true doctrine, the called have been set apart in Christ.

 

[KenH]

Neither supports your claim. The NKJV uses your "Greek Text" and supports the true doctrine, the called have been set apart in Christ.

As has been previously shown, the NKJV is the same as the KJV:

Revelation 13:8
KJV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
NKJV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

 

[Brightfame52]

Neither supports your claim. The NKJV uses your "Greek Text" and supports the true doctrine, the called have been set apart in Christ.

They do. I showed you the KJV which uses a greek text and a greek text

 

[Van]

As has been previously shown, the NKJV is the same as the KJV:

Revelation 13:8
KJV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
NKJV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Does anyone believe this poster really has no idea or grasp of the topic? Jude 1:1, not Revelation 13:8. Neither do I.

 

[Van]

They do. I showed you the KJV which uses a greek text and a greek text

The Greek text supports the translation that names were not written since the foundation of the world in the Lamb's book of life who was slain. Note how often false teachers rely on mistranslation to push false doctrine!!

 

[Brightfame52]

The Greek text supports the translation that names were not written since the foundation of the world in the Lamb's book of life who was slain. Note how often false teachers rely on mistranslation to push false doctrine!!

I showed you the KJV which uses a greek text and a greek text

 

[Darrell C]

They were given before the incarnation. Existing entities??? Where do you see that in scripture?

There's actually quite a bit of Scripture that makes it clear that, while the Lord certainly knew who would be saved, they were not saved (redeemed, in an eternal context) until Christ redeemed them from their sins.

You are suggesting a salvation that did not exist prior to the Cross.

Here are a couple verses to consider:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


If Christ entered into "the Holy Place" through His blood, which took place after the Incarnation, what were these people you speak of saved by? And, are you suggesting that people under the Law could be saved by the Covenant of Law? Because, right here, it is making the point that those under the Law were still in need of redemption when Christ offered Himself up for them.

Notice:


Hebrews 9:24
King James Version

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


It is significant that Christ entered into Heaven, right?

Also notice:


Hebrews 10:16-20
King James Version

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


The Old Testament Holy of holies was forbidden to men apart from the High Priest and stood as a figure for the reality of entrance to Heaven. Here, we see that entrance into the True Holiest of All is accomplished by one thing: Christ's death in the stead of the sinner.

We can set an approximate date in history when Heaven became available to those who were not just saved by grace through faith but were also eternally redeemed through the death of Christ. That is, His dying in the stead of the sinner.

So, yes, they did sit in Hades and await their redemption. No man entered into the Holiest of All until their entrance was made possible by Christ.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Revelation 13:8
KJV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
NKJV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
NIV - "the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world."
LSV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
YLT1898 - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
WBMS - "the lamb, that was slain from the beginning of the world."

Are you arguing that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world in a literal sense?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Darrell C

There's actually quite a bit of Scripture that makes it clear that, while the Lord certainly knew who would be saved, they were not saved until Christ redeemed them from their sins.

Thats not quite true, they were saved on credit, based upon what Christ would come and do at the Cross. Was David and Abraham Righteous saved b4 Christ died ? Rom 4:1-5

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gen 15:6

6 And he[Abraham] believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Now was Abraham saved in Gen 15

 

[Darrell C]

Thats not quite true, they were saved on credit,

No, actually they were justified. And this—in an Old Covenant context. Romans 4 is given to show a precedent for justifying individuals based on faith, yet most look at this chapter and say Abraham had received what the New Testament over and over say they had not.

So, back up. Read Romans 3 and notice carefully what it states:


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


Now, unless we want to say that it is only under the Covenant of Law there are none good, in order to make Abraham worthy of something that wasn't suddenly available when the Covenant of Law went into effect, then we can say that all prior Ages come under the condemnation found in this chapter.

Note v.21 makes it clear it is ... now. Now the righteousness of God is made manifest. In Romans 3, Abraham is declared righteous based on what he does (and we'll get to that).


22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


Next, consider that the "faith of Jesus Christ" was not available prior to, well—the coming of Jesus Christ. And before we say, "But, prophecy of Messiah was known in the Hebrew Scriptures," ask yourself this question: are Jews today, who reject Jesus Christ—"saved" by their faith in a coming Messiah?

If you say yes, then I'm going to need Scripture that teaches two means of salvation. Because that's what it would be; salvation through faith in the finished work of Christ, and salvation simply by believing He will one day come.


23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Again, Mankind is still falling short. Wouldn't be true if people had already had Atonement applied to their behalf. That is why Hebrews 10:14 is so important, because it makes it clear that it is Christ's vicarious death in the stead of the sinner that ends the need for sacrifice for sin.


24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


When was the redemption that is in Christ Jesus available to men? It was not in the previous Ages. He actually had to die, else—He need not have come.

RIght?


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Note very carefully that His death (blood, a euphemism for death) is necessary in order to have faith in His death.

Next, note that it is His righteousness that is declared. Not Abraham's. His righteousness declared for the remission (forgiveness) of sins that are past.

Now who's sin needed His death in order for His righteousness to forgive sins of the past? If we do not understand that even Abraham died in faith (despite the fact that it is mentioned specifically in Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40) still in need of being made complete in regards to his sins, then we are prone to embrace fables about the Atonement being applied—before Christ even died on the Cross.

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Paul reiterates, "at this time." And, those who believe in Jesus Christ (specifically) are justified.

There is a difference between Temporal Justification and Eternal Justification. Temporal refers to those deeds by which we as individuals (even we believers in Christ) are either justified or not. It is not the same as being eternally redeemed through faith in Christ.

Now let's look briefly why Abraham was justified:


Romans 4
King James Version

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Paul makes it clear he is speaking in a temporal context, not eternal, as he just finished speaking in regards to justification through faith in Christ and His death. In other words, what is described refers to Abraham's earthly life.


So let's look at why Abraham was justified:


3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


It doesn't say Abraham believed in Christ. And before we say, "But Abraham heard and believed the Gospel," remember, the Gospel Abraham heard was not that Christ would die in his stead for his sins to reestablish relationship between him and God, it was ...



Galatians 3:8
King James Version

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


You can look back at Genesis and see Paul is not incorrect in quoting the Gospel Abraham heard. Just as Genesis 3:15 is the Gospel, so too was this declaration. It foretold Christ. But it not the Gospel of Christ revealed. It is not the revelation of the Gospel of Christ whereby men could be eternally redeemed.


Romans 3

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


This is what Abraham believed in order to be justified. So I ask you, can men be eternally redeemed through belief in all various manners of faith, or do they specifically need to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? Because when we make Temporal Justification equal to Eternal Justification, we nullify the very Gospel of Christ.

based upon what Christ would come and do at the Cross. Was David and Abraham Righteous saved b4 Christ died ? Rom 4:1-5

Great. Just present the Scripture. This is a view that has no biblical basis, because it cannot be found in Scripture, and prooftexts purporting this flawed view cannot overturn clear statements in Scripture that make it clear that only through faith in the risen Messiah (which implies faith in His vicarious death) that men and women can be eternally redeemed.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gen 15:6

6 And he[Abraham] believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Now was Abraham saved in Gen 15

Nope. He was justified.


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Just read Hebrews 7-10 a few times. It will become clear. It is a false view that places people under the New Covenant before Christ inaugurated the New Covenant with His blood/death. It is a false view that Atonement was applied to Old Testament Saints prior to Atonement being available.

God bless.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Darrell C

Nope. He was justified.

Same thing, righteous and forgiven

 

[Zaatar71]

There's actually quite a bit of Scripture that makes it clear that, while the Lord certainly knew who would be saved, they were not saved (redeemed, in an eternal context) until Christ redeemed them from their sins.

You are suggesting a salvation that did not exist prior to the Cross.

Here are a couple verses to consider:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


If Christ entered into "the Holy Place" through His blood, which took place after the Incarnation, what were these people you speak of saved by? And, are you suggesting that people under the Law could be saved by the Covenant of Law? Because, right here, it is making the point that those under the Law were still in need of redemption when Christ offered Himself up for them.

Notice:


Hebrews 9:24
King James Version

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


It is significant that Christ entered into Heaven, right?

Also notice:


Hebrews 10:16-20
King James Version

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


The Old Testament Holy of holies was forbidden to men apart from the High Priest and stood as a figure for the reality of entrance to Heaven. Here, we see that entrance into the True Holiest of All is accomplished by one thing: Christ's death in the stead of the sinner.

We can set an approximate date in history when Heaven became available to those who were not just saved by grace through faith but were also eternally redeemed through the death of Christ. That is, His dying in the stead of the sinner.

So, yes, they did sit in Hades and await their redemption. No man entered into the Holiest of All until their entrance was made possible by Christ.

God bless.

I agree with much of what you have written here. Election is God setting His love on these people before the world was. Jesus dies for them...Then at regeneration, the Spirit applies the completed work to them in real time as we live now. We go from life to death at regeneration even though the finished work happened at the cross. Not one given from the Father to the Son will be lost.

 

[Darrell C]

@Darrell C


Same thing, righteous and forgiven

Sorry, no.


Luke 18:9-14
King James Version

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Are you going to tell me this man was eternally redeemed and justified by the blood of Christ—before Christ died? Can men be saved eternally by acknowledging their sin?

As I said, you are suggesting salvation through methods other than faith in Christ. This man was temporally justified (Romans 4), not eternally justified (Romans 3).

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I agree with much of what you have written here. Election is God setting His love on these people before the world was. Jesus dies for them...Then at regeneration, the Spirit applies the completed work to them in real time as we live now. We go from life to death at regeneration even though the finished work happened at the cross. Not one given from the Father to the Son will be lost.

But it still has to be acknowledged that every individual salvation has a place in time when it occurs. It is not something one is born into this world already having. Before you placed faith in Christ you were dead. All you had was physical life. You were separated from God. Regardless of whether you were Elect or not, you needed to place faith in Christ.

Secondly, there is almost a subsequence implied in your statement; salvation is regeneration. The moment you placed faith in Christ—you were baptized into Christ and indwelt by God. What that means is that your dead being received the very life of God. And this could not occur until Christ died in your place.

But don't take my word for it:


John 3:9-16
King James Version

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


Nicodemus is asking, "How can men be born again?" Christ answers this question.


10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


"Eternal Life" is what you received when you trusted Christ. That, because you received God Himself. He indwells you in an eternal relationship. He will be with you forever, as Christ taught in John 14.

But the simple truth is this: in order for men to be born again, Christ had to be lifted up. He had to die. Secondly, He had to send the Spirit of Truth, that the Gospel (the only saving truth) be revealed, and no more a Mystery.

God gave His Son that men might have Eternal Life. What did they have before He gave us the Son?

They were dead. Dead in trespasses and sins, with no relationship with God. That is what Adam cost Mankind, relationship with God. That is what is restored unto men when we are redeemed by Christ through His grace.

God bless.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Darrell C

Sorry, no.

Yes it is and Im not going to continue back and forth about it, if you dont believe it, its because the truth is hid from you.