The Heart Of The Gospel

[Salty]

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[Silverhair]

Let me clarify first of all that I did not say that it isn't possible to confess that Jesus is Lord in prayer. What I meant was that confessing Jesus Christ as Lord does not happen only in prayer. It happens when giving one's testimony. It happened when the Ethiopian answered Philip. And yes, as you say, God would have heard him, but we're not told that he (the Ethiopian) was praying, but that he was responding to Philip'. So the matter of confessing Jesus as Lord is not a biblical basis for what has become known as "the sinners prayer."

But what is the sinners prayer? As far as I know it is just something that Paul Washer coined.

To me a "sinners prayer"would just a sinner calling out to God for salvation.

 

[Salty]

But what is the sinners prayer? As far as I know it is just something that Paul Washer coined.

To me a "sinners prayer"would just a sinner calling out to God for salvation.

Some consider it the "Repeat after me....."
another words - do folks actually know what they are saying -
easy to repeat - without understanding.

 

[Silverhair]

Some consider it the "Repeat after me....."
another words - do folks actually know what they are saying -
easy to repeat - without understanding.

I would say the problem is not the "sinners prayer" but the presentation of the gospel message.

It seems to come down to is the one presenting the gospel message just trying to add names to a tally sheet or are they trying to save souls.

The one hearing the gospel message does not have to know everything about Jesus but they do need to know that they are lost sinners and that Jesus is the only means of salvation.

So it would seem we are attacking the wrong end of the issue.

 

[Salty]

I would say the problem is not the "sinners prayer" but the presentation of the gospel message.
\\\

SH, you hit the nail on the head!

I remember one night, I went to council a young boy - when Mr. Bean came around to collect the cards, I told him the boy did not get saved.
Mr. Bean got upset - that I did not fill out a card! I guess their thinking was that if you come fwd- your get saved. Well, as I counseled the boy, I had read rom 6:23 - and asked the boy - you sinned, right- he said he had never sinned. Then I found out that he would come fwd about once a month to get saved. Well, shortly after that, I left for Germany, so I dont know what happened later.

In my home church, when someone came forward - (normally) the counselor would take the individual to a seperate room for real counseling for salvation or whatever they needed. - Now, if someone came to say they wanted to get baptized - that was something else.

 

[Silverhair]

SH, you hit the nail on the head!

I remember one night, I went to council a young boy - when Mr. Bean came around to collect the cards, I told him the boy did not get saved.
Mr. Bean got upset - that I did not fill out a card! I guess their thinking was that if you come fwd- your get saved. Well, as I counseled the boy, I had read rom 6:23 - and asked the boy - you sinned, right- he said he had never sinned. Then I found out that he would come fwd about once a month to get saved. Well, shortly after that, I left for Germany, so I dont know what happened later.

In my home church, when someone came forward - (normally) the counselor would take the individual to a seperate room for real counseling for salvation or whatever they needed. - Now, if someone came to say they wanted to get baptized - that was something else.

We had an outreach at a coffee shop [The House] in Calgary. I would have those that said they understood what salvation was to present the gospel to me in their own words.

By doing that it helped both of use improve in how we presented the gospel message.

 

[Zaatar71]

Salvation is of the Lord why would anyone doubt that.

We do not know why some would doubt that. We think it is because they have a man centered theology, so they have to give a big part of salvation to man, and not to God.

Where the C/R's error is that they think they were chosen before creation

This is not an error, but rather a biblical fact. To deny this truth is a direct denial of scripture, and turns out to be a denial of Jonah 2:9

and that faith is a work.

Anything you do, that comes from you, is a work by definition

Price did well until he added the words "not potential or conditional, or based on anything we think, do or say.

 

[Zaatar71]

But what is the sinners prayer? As far as I know it is just something that Paul Washer coined.

To me a "sinners prayer"would just a sinner calling out to God for salvation.

No. The sinners prayer came from Charles Finney's "new measures". Walking forward in a meeting is not "being saved".
Repeating a prayer, like a parrot, is not being saved.

 

[Silverhair]

We do not know why some would doubt that. We think it is because they have a man centered theology, so they have to give a big part of salvation to man, and not to God.

Those that reject God do not have a theology. Theology is the study of God and His character. So not man centered theology.

This is not an error, but rather a biblical fact. To deny this truth is a direct denial of scripture, and turns out to be a denial of Jonah 2:9

To think you were saved before creation is the error of the C/R view. God's plan was set before creation that all those that would trust in Christ would be saved.

Anything you do, that comes from you, is a work by definition

That is why Paul said that faith is not a work. That is just what those of the C/R view call faith as they think God has to give them faith after they are saved.

Look at Eph 2:8-9
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of your own doing, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no man may boast.

or here
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus,

The bible is clear that we are save because we believe.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So the question is, if God does not consider faith a work but rather is the requirement for salvation then why do you of the C/R view deny this biblical teaching?

 

[Silverhair]

No. The sinners prayer came from Charles Finney's "new measures". Walking forward in a meeting is not "being saved".
Repeating a prayer, like a parrot, is not being saved.

So are you saying that someone calling out to God for salvation is not that sinners prayer?

It seems to me that those of the C/R view want to diminish the value of a person freely trusting in God for their salvation via calling out to Him through prayer as it does not fit your philosophy that God has to drag you to Him via some irresistible force.

My question for you is how do you know who is and is not saved if they walk forward? Did God give you some special insight into His workings in men's lives? You seem to be taking quite q bit of authority tat you really do not have.

If the person truly believes and repeats the prayer "like a parrot" does that mean they were not save because of that?

But at the same time you are sure you were saved before you even had faith in Christ Jesus because some man told you that was how it happened even though the bible tells you that view is wrong.

 

[Zaatar71]

Those that reject God do not have a theology. Theology is the study of God and His character. So not man centered theology.



To think you were saved before creation is the error of the C/R view. God's plan was set before creation that all those that would trust in Christ would be saved.


That is why Paul said that faith is not a work. That is just what those of the C/R view call faith as they think God has to give them faith after they are saved.

Look at Eph 2:8-9
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of your own doing, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no man may boast.

or here
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus,

The bible is clear that we are save because we believe.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So the question is, if God does not consider faith a work but rather is the requirement for salvation then why do you of the C/R view deny this biblical teaching?

The bible not once says we are saved because of faith. It does say we are saved, By or through faith, never because of faith.
The natural man does have a false theology. he worships the idol of free will as his god.

 

[Zaatar71]

So are you saying that someone calling out to God for salvation is not that sinners prayer?

What is known as "the sinners prayer" is part of Finney's new measures. Repeating a prayer, rather than actually praying is two different things.

It seems to me that those of the C/R view want to diminish the value of a person freely trusting in God for their salvation via calling out to Him through prayer as it does not fit your philosophy that God has to drag you to Him via some irresistible force.

It does seem that way to you, as someone who denies the effectual call.

My question for you is how do you know who is and is not saved if they walk forward?

The proper confession of faith in the NT. is water baptism. It has nothing to do with raising a hand, or walking the aisle. We do not fully know who is saved, as only God see's the heart.

Did God give you some special insight into His workings in men's lives?

Yes he has given that in the scriptures, as the Spirit quickens it to us.

You seem to be taking quite q bit of authority tat you really do not have.

I have the scriptures as my authority. I have it since the moment God drew me to Himself.

If the person truly believes and repeats the prayer "like a parrot" does that mean they were not save because of that?

If any person is saved, it is because God has given them a new heart at regeneration, as the Spirit then began to work in them to will and do of His good pleasure.

But at the same time you are sure you were saved before you even had faith in Christ Jesus

No one is saved until the Spirit quickens them. We are born rebels against God and His word, until God makes us willing in the day of His power.

because some man told you that was how it happened even though the bible tells you that view is wrong.

No man said anything. Scripture reveals all of these things, if you discover where to look in the 66 books to find them.

 

[Dave G]

The heart of the Gospel is Christ crucified for sinners, while the scope of the Gospel is everything that the Lord accomplished for those that He saved by His grace and mercy.
This message was given to men like Paul, whom the Lord used to minister to those of His elect that are Gentiles in the flesh, for example...while Peter was the minister of the Gospel to the Jews.

It includes the "how", the "why", and many other details... details such as pre-destination, election, calling, justification, holiness and why we are to walk in it, the difference between works and grace, the purpose of the Law in the believer's life and its effect on them, and much more.

The truth of the matter is, that God reserved a people unto Himself before the world began, wrote their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, and then, in the fullness of time, sent His Son to live, die and to rise again for them;
As well as to make intercession for them at the right hand of God until such time as He comes again to receive us to Himself.
No one outside of this God-ordained process is saved, can be saved or ever will be saved...

As the works of His grace have been finished from the foundation of the world.


However, we preach Christ crucified for sinners, knowing that His people ( who are known only to Him and are manifested in the world by their belief of His every word ) will hear His words and believe them, and His will is certain to be accomplished.

Those of us "Baptists" that are labeled as "Calvinists" declare this freely, as Paul did to the churches when he was inspired by the Lord to write about such things in his letters to the Romans, the Ephesians, the Thessalonians and others, while Peter spoke of such things ( hard to be understood ) in his few letters as well.

 

[Silverhair]

The bible not once says we are saved because of faith. It does say we are saved, By or through faith, never because of faith.
The natural man does have a false theology. he worships the idol of free will as his god.

You do know that what you just wrote is complete foolishness.

 

[Silverhair]

What is known as "the sinners prayer" is part of Finney's new measures. Repeating a prayer, rather than actually praying is two different things.


It does seem that way to you, as someone who denies the effectual call.


The proper confession of faith in the NT. is water baptism. It has nothing to do with raising a hand, or walking the aisle. We do not fully know who is saved, as only God see's the heart.


Yes he has given that in the scriptures, as the Spirit quickens it to us.


I have the scriptures as my authority. I have it since the moment God drew me to Himself.

If any person is saved, it is because God has given them a new heart at regeneration, as the Spirit then began to work in them to will and do of His good pleasure.

No one is saved until the Spirit quickens them. We are born rebels against God and His word, until God makes us willing in the day of His power.

No man said anything. Scripture reveals all of these things, if you discover where to look in the 66 books to find them.

Well I see that you give all the rehearsed answers that I have come to expect from those of the C/R view.

You have traded the word of God for the word of man.

Your philosophy can be traced right back to Augustine who brought pagan teachings into the church.

So your saying that getting wet is a real confession of faith but walking down an aisle is not. Actually neither or but both are a response to faith.

Yes the spirit quickens those that believe, just as we see in the bible.

Regeneration means born again, made new. One is born again by the grace of God because they have believed not so they will believe as your religion posits.

I see the C/R's use the phrase "God makes us willing in the day of His power" or something similar. I did a search of all the bibles I have and could not find it so could point the location of the verse.

Your last comment makes it sound like you need a higher or deeper knowledge in order to have those things revealed to them. That is Gnosticism.

 

[Zaatar71]

The heart of the Gospel is Christ crucified for sinners, while the scope of the Gospel is everything that the Lord accomplished for those that He saved by His grace and mercy.
This message was given to men like Paul, whom the Lord used to minister to those of His elect that are Gentiles in the flesh, for example...while Peter was the minister of the Gospel to the Jews.

It includes the "how", the "why", and many other details... details such as pre-destination, election, calling, justification, holiness and why we are to walk in it, the difference between works and grace, the purpose of the Law in the believer's life and its effect on them, and much more.

The truth of the matter is, that God reserved a people unto Himself before the world began, wrote their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, and then, in the fullness of time, sent His Son to live, die and to rise again for them;
As well as to make intercession for them at the right hand of God until such time as He comes again to receive us to Himself.
No one outside of this God-ordained process is saved, can be saved or ever will be saved...

As the works of His grace have been finished from the foundation of the world.


However, we preach Christ crucified for sinners, knowing that His people ( who are known only to Him and are manifested in the world by their belief of His every word ) will hear His words and believe them, and His will is certain to be accomplished.

Those of us "Baptists" that are labeled as "Calvinists" declare this freely, as Paul did to the churches when he was inspired by the Lord to write about such things in his letters to the Romans, the Ephesians, the Thessalonians and others, while Peter spoke of such things ( hard to be understood ) in his few letters as well.

Hello Dave G, I like your post as it is solid and biblical based. You correctly post of our responsibility to offer the gospel to all men. I have had opportunities to offer the truth of the gospel, even to Muslims, who consider us an enemy of their god. I have been watching as Muslims have started on a demonic quest to dominate worldwide, even by the sword. I believe we need to know enough about their false system, so we can stand for truth. Thanks for your posts!

 

[Zaatar71]

Well I see that you give all the rehearsed answers that I have come to expect from those of the C/R view.

You have traded the word of God for the word of man.

Your philosophy can be traced right back to Augustine who brought pagan teachings into the church.

So your saying that getting wet is a real confession of faith but walking down an aisle is not. Actually neither or but both are a response to faith.

Yes the spirit quickens those that believe, just as we see in the bible.

Regeneration means born again, made new. One is born again by the grace of God because they have believed not so they will believe as your religion posits.

I see the C/R's use the phrase "God makes us willing in the day of His power" or something similar. I did a search of all the bibles I have and could not find it so could point the location of the verse.

Your last comment makes it sound like you need a higher or deeper knowledge in order to have those things revealed to them. That is Gnosticism.

Hello Siverhair, Thanks for your response. Your response tells us that there are still things that you need to discover.
The verse you could not find, is in Psalm 110:110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

This Psalm is quoted 6 times in the New Testament, so it is very important.

What you mock and ridicule is not philosophy, but rather God given truth,. Some of it is revealed to believers, and hidden from scoffers who are too proud to humble themselves before God. Cals get their teaching from Jesus and the Apostles. If Augustine saw some of these truths, that would be great for him. I have not read much from Him, maybe a quote someone offered well after I was allowed to see scriptural truth. You can continue to smirk and snear at truth, but it would be better for you to ask God to allow you to see a bit more.

 

[Silverhair]

Hello Siverhair, Thanks for your response. Your response tells us that there are still things that you need to discover.
The verse you could not find, is in Psalm 110:110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

This Psalm is quoted 6 times in the New Testament, so it is very important.

What you mock and ridicule is not philosophy, but rather God given truth,. Some of it is revealed to believers, and hidden from scoffers who are too proud to humble themselves before God. Cals get their teaching from Jesus and the Apostles. If Augustine saw some of these truths, that would be great for him. I have not read much from Him, maybe a quote someone offered well after I was allowed to see scriptural truth. You can continue to smirk and snear at truth, but it would be better for you to ask God to allow you to see a bit more.

So you do not have a verse to support your "God makes us willing in the day of His power". How you get that from Psa 110:1 "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." is just one of those C/R mysteries.

Says nothing about making people willing to believe as I have seen many of the C/R's use that made up phrase.

Actually the C/R view is based on pagan philosophy brought into the church by Augustine in the 4th century when he was contending with Pelagius.

If you actually want to know the truth you would do some research on your own. But that is a big if in the case of most that hold to the C/R view. I doubt that you will humble yourself to admit that you have been duped.

I have spent the time and done the work to see what the truth is. That is why I do not see the TULIP/DoG as biblical. It is just man's attempt to support their man-made religion.

@Zaatar71 your response tells us that there are still things that you need to discover. But the real question is are you willing to do the work to discover them or will you just continue to blindly follow those false teachers.

 

[David Lamb]

But what is the sinners prayer? As far as I know it is just something that Paul Washer coined.

To me a "sinners prayer"would just a sinner calling out to God for salvation.

Whenever I have come across the phrase, "the sinner's prayer," it has always referred to sinners being invited to "come to the front" of some evangelistic meeting, and being told to repeat the words of a set prayer, such as: "Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Saviour. In Your Name. Amen." Rather than coming from the sinner's heart, such a prayer is either read from a card or repeated, line by line, after somebody who already is a Christian says it.

 

[Zaatar71]

So you do not have a verse to support your "God makes us willing in the day of His power". How you get that from Psa 110:1 "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." is just one of those C/R mysteries.

Says nothing about making people willing to believe as I have seen many of the C/R's use that made up phrase.

Actually the C/R view is based on pagan philosophy brought into the church by Augustine in the 4th century when he was contending with Pelagius.

If you actually want to know the truth you would do some research on your own. But that is a big if in the case of most that hold to the C/R view. I doubt that you will humble yourself to admit that you have been duped.

I have spent the time and done the work to see what the truth is. That is why I do not see the TULIP/DoG as biblical. It is just man's attempt to support their man-made religion.

@Zaatar71 your response tells us that there are still things that you need to discover. But the real question is are you willing to do the work to discover them or will you just continue to blindly follow those false teachers.

Psalm 110:3​

​

King James Version​

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
I isolated verse 3, so maybe you will not miss it this time.