No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Brightfame52]

The man or women who comes to Christ, doesn't come by their own freewill ability, because naturally man is spiritually dead and without any spiritual life and ability. However when the Father draws one to Christ, He begins by giving them life, spiritual life. The drawing indicates life has been given.

See coming denotes motion and motion denotes living'

The word draw denotes to impel to impart motion to, which motion is life, spiritual life 2

BF you continue to make the same mistake over and over. Look at who Jesus was speaking to. The context of the conversation will clear up many of you mistakes.

The Jews claimed to love God but their rejection of Jesus showed that they in fact did not. They were not of God.

The verse does not tell us that you have to be of God before you can hear and respond to the gospel message if that is what you are suggesting.

Listen to Jesus, youll be the wiser. Now who does He specify that hears the words of God ? Take a deep breath and read Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

If you did not agree with it then why did you post it?

But either way the comment is still true.

Think through what you linked to BF.
Note your words BF "they do not possess the spiritual ears which accompanies a person who is saved."

The only way a person can hear and believe is if they have those so called "spiritual ears" but they cannot have those spiritual ears until they are saved. So no one can be saved as no one has those special ears prior to being saved.

I do agree with it but I didnt write it. This shows you others believe and understand as i do

 

[Silverhair]

The man or women who comes to Christ, doesn't come by their own freewill ability, because naturally man is spiritually dead and without any spiritual life and ability. However when the Father draws one to Christ, He begins by giving them life, spiritual life. The drawing indicates life has been given.

See coming denotes motion and motion denotes living'

The word draw denotes to impel to impart motion to, which motion is life, spiritual life 2

So then going by what you have just said and in consideration of what the bible tells us no one is spiritually dead.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw G1670 all men to Myself."

Now you should note that Jesus did not say "some men" or even what the C/R's call the "elect" but rather ALL MEN.

But then you go not to say "The drawing indicates life has been given." But if they have life then that would indicate that they are saved as we only have spiritual life in Christ Jesus. So are you going to now promote universalism BF?

But I did note also that you really did not think through how God draws people to Himself. You leave the impression that it is by force, the C/R "Irresistible grace" but if that were true then how would a just God judge those that did not get the "Irresistible grace" required to come to Him?

Thayer defines G1670 Helkúō thus:
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel.
Now to fully understand what he is saying we need to delve further and look at "impel".

Webster defines it this way: impel
To drive or urge forward; to press on; to excite to action or to move forward, by the application of physical force [which God does not use], or moral suasion or necessity.

Since God does not use physical force it leaves us with "moral suasion" which is the "act of persuading" or put another way "To influence by argument, advice, entreaty or expostulation [reasoning with a person in opposition to his conduct]; to draw or incline the will to a determination by presenting motives to the mind." see Eph_1:13

So we see form scripture that God has used various means to draw people to Himself creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message etc.

Listen to Jesus, youll be the wiser. Now who does He specify that hears the words of God ? Take a deep breath and read Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

You should step back and read all of John 8 and you will see who Jesus is speaking to and why He said what He said.

You continue to cherry pick verses that you think support your view but the context continues to show your error.

So please take your own advise BF, take a deep breath and read John 8 you will be the better for it.

I do agree with it but I didnt write it. This shows you others believe and understand as i do

Just because other's think the same way as you do does not make it correct when it disagrees with the word of God.

An error is an error no matter how many people believe it.

 

[Brightfame52]

So then going by what you have just said and in consideration of what the bible tells us no one is spiritually dead.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw G1670 all men to Myself."

Now you should note that Jesus did not say "some men" or even what the C/R's call the "elect" but rather ALL MEN.

But then you go not to say "The drawing indicates life has been given." But if they have life then that would indicate that they are saved as we only have spiritual life in Christ Jesus. So are you going to now promote universalism BF?

But I did note also that you really did not think through how God draws people to Himself. You leave the impression that it is by force, the C/R "Irresistible grace" but if that were true then how would a just God judge those that did not get the "Irresistible grace" required to come to Him?

Thayer defines G1670 Helkúō thus:
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel.
Now to fully understand what he is saying we need to delve further and look at "impel".

Webster defines it this way: impel
To drive or urge forward; to press on; to excite to action or to move forward, by the application of physical force [which God does not use], or moral suasion or necessity.

Since God does not use physical force it leaves us with "moral suasion" which is the "act of persuading" or put another way "To influence by argument, advice, entreaty or expostulation [reasoning with a person in opposition to his conduct]; to draw or incline the will to a determination by presenting motives to the mind." see Eph_1:13

So we see form scripture that God has used various means to draw people to Himself creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message etc.

Drawing and saving are the same. Jn 12:32 applies to the saved. And all without exception are saved.

You should step back and read all of John 8 and you will see who Jesus is speaking to and why He said what He said.

You continue to cherry pick verses that you think support your view but the context continues to show your error.

So please take your own advise BF, take a deep breath and read John 8 you will be the better for it.

Listen to Jesus, youll be the wiser. Now who does He specify that hears the words of God ? Take a deep breath and read Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Just because other's think the same way as you do does not make it correct when it disagrees with the word of God.

An error is an error no matter how many people believe it.

Yeah others believe the same as I do, I have no premium on the truth, God has showed it to others.

 

[Dave...]

Listen to Jesus, youll be the wiser. Now who does He specify that hears the words of God ? Take a deep breath and read Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Only the sheep hear, those who were true OT believers that the Father gave to the Son.

Bright, what do you do with true OT believers when God incarnate enters the scene? Are they still saved from OT revelation? Did they lose their salvation only to be given another chance at believing the Gospel know being preached to them? What does todays reformed believers do with these true OT believers at the time when the Gospel began to be preached by Jesus? You do realize that it's still the OT dispensation until the cross, right? Please share.

Dave

 

[Brightfame52]

Only the sheep hear, those who were true OT believers that the Father gave to the Son.

Bright, what do you do with true OT believers when God incarnate enters the scene? Are they still saved from OT revelation? Did they lose their salvation only to be given another chance at believing the Gospel know being preached to them? What does todays reformed believers do with these true OT believers at the time when the Gospel began to be preached by Jesus? You do realize that it's still the OT dispensation until the cross, right? Please share.

Dave

Listen to Jesus, youll be the wiser. Now who does He specify that hears the words of God ? Take a deep breath and read Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Are you nuts BF? Where do you see that in John 12:32.

It is no wonder that you have such a strange view of scripture. You just add your own meaning to words.

That understanding is pure universalism BF which is heresy.

Problem is you cant see what I see. To draw is the impartation of movement, life. God isnt drawing something dead, its living SoS 1:4

Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.

God draws them with His Lovingkindness Jer 31:3

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

The drawing is done by the Spirit in them impelling them, after new birth or regeneration.

In order for man to come to Christ he must be given motion, life, this comes by quickening. All who come to Christ have been quickened out of a dead spiritual state. Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

In the original the word quickened isnt there, its derived from verse 5 and its the word suzóopoieó and means:

to make alive together with
Usage: I make alive together with.

I make that which was dead to live, cause to live, quicken.

This causing to live is giving motion to, which is the impelling aspect of drawing Jn 6:44 and 12:32

So quickening and drawing can be used interchangeably. 2

Your religion makes God a liar.

How can you justify these lies you continue to tell. This not just you misunderstanding what the bible says you are twisting and changing the meaning of words. You will be judged for all that you say BF.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Mat_11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourself for the way you disrespect the word of God.

I have seen a number of those that hold to the C/R view fight against the word of God but BF you really take the cake.

When God draws a person, He has intervened in their life and gives them life, He causes them to believe in Jesus. Does He draw all mankind head for head ? No, only that portion of mankind that become believers in Jesus. And Im not talking about the false jesus who supposedly died for all mankind, but the one and only Jesus who came to save only a specific people from their sins Matt 1:21

 

[Silverhair]

Drawing and saving are the same. Jn 12:32 applies to the saved. And all without exception are saved.

Are you nuts BF? Where do you see that in John 12:32.

It is no wonder that you have such a strange view of scripture. You just add your own meaning to words.

That understanding is pure universalism BF which is heresy.

Yeah others believe the same as I do, I have no premium on the truth, God has showed it to others.

What you call the truth is just your odd view of scripture. The basis of your religion is pagan philosophy BF. When the root of the tree is rotten it cannot produce good fruit.

Problem is you cant see what I see. To draw is the impartation of movement, life. God isnt drawing something dead, its living SoS 1:4

Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.

God draws them with His Lovingkindness Jer 31:3

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

The drawing is done by the Spirit in them impelling them, after new birth or regeneration.

Your religion makes God a liar.

How can you justify these lies you continue to tell. This not just you misunderstanding what the bible says you are twisting and changing the meaning of words. You will be judged for all that you say BF.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Mat_11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourself for the way you disrespect the word of God.

I have seen a number of those that hold to the C/R view fight against the word of God but BF you really take the cake.

 

[Silverhair]

In order for man to come to Christ he must be given motion, life, this comes by quickening. All who come to Christ have been quickened out of a dead spiritual state. Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

In the original the word quickened isnt there, its derived from verse 5 and its the word suzóopoieó and means:

to make alive together with
Usage: I make alive together with.

I make that which was dead to live, cause to live, quicken.

This causing to live is giving motion to, which is the impelling aspect of drawing Jn 6:44 and 12:32

So quickening and drawing can be used interchangeably. 2

BF if you had bothered to read Eph 2:8-9 [For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith] you would know why they were made alive and how. By the grace of God because we believe, just as we see in Eph 1:13 [you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed]

Note what it says in vs 5 BF [even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.] That does not fit your view BF.

Man hears and either rejects or believes it. If he believes then God is gracious and saves him. The biblical text is clear Bf so why do you not accept it?

 

[Silverhair]

When God draws a person, He has intervened in their life and gives them life, He causes them to believe in Jesus. Does He draw all mankind head for head ? No, only that portion of mankind that become believers in Jesus. And Im not talking about the false jesus who supposedly died for all mankind, but the one and only Jesus who came to save only a specific people from their sins Matt 1:21

Two points BF.

1] The people that Mat 1:21 is referring to would be the Jews.
Joh 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Jesus went to His own people, the nation Israel, but they as a whole rejected Him. He presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah, but they would not receive Him.

2] You call Jesus a false jesus because He came to save all mankind. The bible proves you wrong once again BF.

Why did God send His son?
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Why would He do this?
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Who did Jesus say He died for?
Joh 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

How can one know of Jesus and be saved?
Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes:

What must man do to be saved?
Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

When you call the Jesus that draws all men to Himself so that they might be saved a false jesus you have denied God.

If you do not even know the basic truths of salvation then I have to question everything you say about Christianity.

It seems you are more concerned about supporting your man-made religion than you are the word of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF if you had bothered to read Eph 2:8-9 [For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith] you would know why they were made alive and how. By the grace of God because we believe, just as we see in Eph 1:13 [you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed]

Note what it says in vs 5 BF [even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.] That does not fit your view BF.

Man hears and either rejects or believes it. If he believes then God is gracious and saves him. The biblical text is clear Bf so why do you not accept it?

A person doesnt and cant come to Christ until they are first made alive. Coming denotes life, b4 life mn are dead. Hearing denotes life and not being deaf.

 

[Brightfame52]

Two points BF.

1] The people that Mat 1:21 is referring to would be the Jews.
Joh 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Jesus went to His own people, the nation Israel, but they as a whole rejected Him. He presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah, but they would not receive Him.

2] You call Jesus a false jesus because He came to save all mankind. The bible proves you wrong once again BF.

Why did God send His son?
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Why would He do this?
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Who did Jesus say He died for?
Joh 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

How can one know of Jesus and be saved?
Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes:

What must man do to be saved?
Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

When you call the Jesus that draws all men to Himself so that they might be saved a false jesus you have denied God.

If you do not even know the basic truths of salvation then I have to question everything you say about Christianity.

It seems you are more concerned about supporting your man-made religion than you are the word of God.

When God draws a person, He has intervened in their life and gives them life, He causes them to believe in Jesus. Does He draw all mankind head for head ? No, only that portion of mankind that become believers in Jesus. And Im not talking about the false jesus who supposedly died for all mankind, but the one and only Jesus who came to save only a specific people from their sins Matt 1:21

 

[Silverhair]

A person doesnt and cant come to Christ until they are first made alive. Coming denotes life, b4 life mn are dead. Hearing denotes life and not being deaf.

BF that is not a biblical view. You are just presenting a false man-made view that has no basis in scripture.

When God draws a person, He has intervened in their life and gives them life, He causes them to believe in Jesus. Does He draw all mankind head for head ? No, only that portion of mankind that become believers in Jesus. And Im not talking about the false jesus who supposedly died for all mankind, but the one and only Jesus who came to save only a specific people from their sins Matt 1:21

You are promoting a false view of Christ Jesus BF. You continue to deny the word of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF that is not a biblical view. You are just presenting a false man-made view that has no basis in scripture.

It is biblical but you dont know it. Dead folk cant hear spiritual things of God. Dead folks dont spiritually come to Christ. Man is dead, dead, dead

You are promoting a false view of Christ Jesus BF. You continue to deny the word of God.

Coming denotes life, activity. Before Life man is dead, dead, dead ! Even in all his religion he is dead. Remember the pharisee in Lk 18 ? He was Dead but didnt know it

 

[Dave...]

Listen to Jesus, youll be the wiser. Now who does He specify that hears the words of God ? Take a deep breath and read Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Bright, the hidden part, the part speaking of those who cannot hear, is in the context, which is deliberately avoided by you.

 

[Brightfame52]

Bright, the hidden part, the part speaking of those who cannot hear, is in the context, which is deliberately avoided by you.

Here it is as to who hears [spiritually] the words of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The Apostles knew this, they knew who could and would hear them 1 Jn 4:6

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

You have to be of God to hear the things of God

Bright, the hidden part, the part speaking of those who cannot hear, is in the context, which is deliberately avoided by you.

Jesus already said man cannot hear His word in Vs 43 which speaks to lack of ability

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Man doesnt have the freewill ability to even hear the word of God, in a spiritual way, because by nature we are dead, dead, dead

 

[Dave...]

True OT believers (Those who are of God) would have recognized Jesus as the Messiah and would have been receptive to His words.

Context.

 

[Brightfame52]

True OT believers (Those who are of God) would have recognized Jesus as the Messiah and would have been receptive to His words.

Context.

Anyone saved is of God, thats what it takes to hear the word of God. Jn 8:47

 

[Silverhair]

Bright, the hidden part, the part speaking of those who cannot hear, is in the context, which is deliberately avoided by you.

BF does not understand the concept of context thus he continues to post views that contain serious errors.

 

[Silverhair]

It is biblical but you dont know it. Dead folk cant hear spiritual things of God. Dead folks dont spiritually come to Christ. Man is dead, dead, dead


Coming denotes life, activity. Before Life man is dead, dead, dead ! Even in all his religion he is dead. Remember the pharisee in Lk 18 ? He was Dead but didnt know it

You can keep saying that but it will not make it true.

 

[Silverhair]

Anyone saved is of God, thats what it takes to hear the word of God. Jn 8:47

The truth of scripture really does not get through to you does it?

You cherry pick verses that you think support your view and ignore the context in which the verses is found.

As they say, no one is so blind as those that will not see.

For someone that claims to preach you have a very limited understanding of the word of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

in order for man to come to Christ he must be given motion, life, this comes by quickening. All who come to Christ have been quickened out of a dead spiritual state. Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

In the original the word quickened isnt there, its derived from verse 5 and its the word suzóopoieó and means:

to make alive together with
Usage: I make alive together with.

I make that which was dead to live, cause to live, quicken.

This causing to live is giving motion to, which is the impelling aspect of drawing Jn 6:44 and 12:32

So quickening and drawing can be used interchangeably. 2