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Understanding God's sovereignty

Dave...

Member
Quite frankly, it's probably impossible to completely understand it. But if we hold true to the boundaries of Scripture, I believe we can have a Biblical understanding of God's sovereignty that, while it does not answer every question, it does lay boundaries to our understanding of it. I believe that this is how most of the great theologians of the past had also seen it. They may have mixed up the terminology, but their teaching suggest that most understood God's sovereignty this way also. This is how I see it. A couple of thing to consider.

The term 'ordain' is what I would call an umbrella word which encompasses God's complete sovereignty over all that He providentially governs. Under the term "ordained", we have both 'predestine', and 'positively allowed' (not predestined). He ordains everything, He positively causes all that is predestined, and He positively allows (doesn't cause) all the rest. What is called 'predestined' and what is 'positively allowed' (not predestined) are both together ordained and decreed from the foundations of the world and are governed by the council of God's will. The point being, that God doesn't need to positively cause something to be sovereign over it. God ordained the day that we were born, and the day we will die. Think about that. The "Positively allowing" part, think of it like a domino effect. Knowing the effect of every cause, He doesn't need to actively cause everything. He can set boundaries, He can remove boundaries, He can be an initial cause and let the rest take it's natural course of action knowing the end result. Please don't read humanism into what I'm saying. ;)

God is bound, or constrained by His attributes. This is why everything that He created was called good, and innocent. Adam and Eve were created good, yet God knew that they would inevitably sin. The only way they would avoid eventually sinning is if God made them like Him, as God. Made in His image, yes, but God cannot deny Himself. That's why they were kept in a state of ignorance, to keep them innocent. Even children born today are created innocent due to their ignorance, paralleling Adam and Eve. The only difference is that children grow out of that state of ignorance. Lucifer, likewise, created good but also created knowing that he would fall.

His justice must be considered. Sometimes God will harden a mans heart, though it is not Him doing it, it is Him allowing evil to do it for Him, by removing the restraints put on that evil. Or simply allowing sin to take it's course, or simply removing any light. If you have sinned once, you are considered guilty without Jesus, and it would fall under His justice for God to do what He wills with you at this point. thankfully, He is merciful.

If you have any discussion about God's sovereignty, especially the typical "free will" discussions, these things should be considered. If you have anything to add, or questions, have at it.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
@Dave...



So that which He only allows must have had another original first cause other than God ?

Man sins on his own BF or are you suggesting that God is the cause of all man's sins?

The problem you have is that you need God to determine all things as we see in the WCF & LBCF that those of the C/R align with. Just another of the problems that crop up when you follow a pagan based philosophy.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Man sins on his own BF or are you suggesting that God is the cause of all man's sins?

The problem you have is that you need God to determine all things as we see in the WCF & LBCF that those of the C/R align with. Just another of the problems that crop up when you follow a pagan based philosophy.
So if God merely allows something He didn't predetermine, then , whatever determined it is a first cause above God
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I am not sure how beneficial philosophical argumentscare here, but the problem with the "first cause" argument is it attributes the end result to the "first cause".

You can see this by looking at secondary "causes". If your child robs a bank and you are the father, are you a cause of the bank robbery? No, obviously not. But if you did not have a child then your child wouldn't have robbed the bank.

Scripture does not explain divine sovereignty for our understanding. We can rest in the fact that God is in control, but the Bible is not a philosophy text book on the mind of God.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@JonC

You can see this by looking at secondary "causes". If your child robs a bank and you are the father, are you a cause of the bank robbery? No, obviously not. But if you did not have a child then your child wouldn't have robbed the bank.

If the Father had previous knowledge that his son if brought into existence would rob the bank and suffer the consequences, and if the father had the ability to prevent the son from such an act and consequences, but nevertheless determined to bring the son into world anyway, having the power not to bring the son into existence to do the act and suffer the consequences, who is the first determining cause that the act be committed ?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@JonC



If the Father had previous knowledge that his son if brought into existence would rob the bank and suffer the consequences, and if the father had the ability to prevent the son from such an act and consequences, but nevertheless determined to bring the son into world anyway, having the power not to bring the son into existence to do the act and suffer the consequences, who is the first determining cause that the act be committed ?
This is what I mean by philosophical arguments. The answer is "no". God knowing the guy would commit the robbery, not stopping the robbery, and creating the msn knowing he would do the crime does not make God the first cause of the crime. The act still originates with the man.

That said, philosophy is fun. We used to play the door game as well. It only becomes a problem when it starts bleeding into theology or doctrine.

What is the first cause of our temptations to sin? God? Not of Scripture is correct. But by your reasoning God is because He created things that tempt us knowing we would be tempted. Here you have to choose between philosophy and God's Word.

If I create a medication to help cancer patients knowing that some people will abuse the drug I am not the cause of their addiction. One can make philosophical arguments for several sides of several scenarios, but ultimately we do not rely on philosophy (in fact, we are warned not to be carried away by vain philosophy).
 

Paleouss

Active Member
Site Supporter
Quite frankly, it's probably impossible to completely understand it
Greetings Dave. Peace and love to you and your faimily.

I agree, the more God shows me the more I see that I don't know.

It seems to me that you have presented a number of topics in this one OP. I thought I might comment on a couple.

Under the term "ordained", we have both 'predestine', and 'positively allowed' (not predestined). He ordains everything, He positively causes all that is predestined, and He positively allows (doesn't cause) all the rest.
This sounds like the the theological subcategory of God's sovereign will that contains God's permissive will. For a more Reformed commentary...

"In ordinary language the term permission suggests some sort of positive sanction. To say that God “allows” or “permits” evil does not mean that He sanctions it in the sense that He grants approval to it. It is easy to discern that God never permits sin in the sense that He sanctions it in His creatures." (R.C. Sproul ©2018-2021 Monergism by CPR Foundation. All Rights Reserved)

There should be no doubt however, that when we speak of God's Permissive Will we understand that what God "permits", He has the authority and power to at any time stop or prevent what He allows. Further what God "permits" coincides with HIs perfect providential plan.

And here is another reason why I am a Compatiblist. What the Bible says we are "free" to will and do, God has ultimately allowed and ordained.
God is bound, or constrained by His attributes.
I disagree with this heading. God is not bound or constrained by anything. You'll be hard pressed to find anything that suggests such a thing in the Bible.

I do agree, logically, that God could not sin. However, I reject that this is a constraint or a lack of freedom. God acts and wills freely according to what He desires to will. That this is a reflection of His nature is not a lack of freedom.

His justice must be considered
I agree with this. I do however think it has a far more reaching impact than just what you expressed in your OP.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)
 

Paleouss

Active Member
Site Supporter
So that which He only allows must have had another original first cause other than God ?
Greetings my brother in Christ. I hope you are doing well since last we spoke.

I think if one is going to use the logic of Aristotle or Aquinas after him regarding first causes. It would be necessary to include Thomas Aquinas' formulation that even though God is the first cause of the 'action', He is not the cause of the privation, i.e., the defect or imperfection within the act. This defect or sin is caused by the will of man whom God has granted through His permissive will. Thus, man is properly considered the cause of sin.


Peace to you brother
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Greetings my brother in Christ. I hope you are doing well since last we spoke.

I think if one is going to use the logic of Aristotle or Aquinas after him regarding first causes. It would be necessary to include Thomas Aquinas' formulation that even though God is the first cause of the 'action', He is not the cause of the privation, i.e., the defect or imperfection within the act. This defect or sin is caused by the will of man whom God has granted through His permissive will. Thus, man is properly considered the cause of sin.


Peace to you brother
God is the first cause of sin because He is the first cause of Salvation from sin. Or do you suppose God got the idea of Salvation from sin outside of Himself ?
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
So you have just made God the cause of all the sin and evil we see in the world.

That view you have is not biblical but seem more like something that would come from false teachers or satan.
God is the first cause of everything in His world, sin, evil, you name it. Salvation, Redemption, God never reacted to nothing
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@JonC



It does, because God predetermined to give that being existence. Without existence the crime could not have been committed by that individual.
It doesn't.

Your logic is flawed. God determining to give a being existance knowing what will occur does not make God the cause of what occurs. The first cause of an act is not the first cause of everything that follows by that act occurring.

In other words, the man who first invented the gun is not the cause of the shooting in Atlanta this week even though the gun would not exist had he mot invented it.

Freund and Speyer are not the cause for oxycodone abuse.

This is the type of humanistic philosophy that Scripture warns us against. Ultimately it is a denial of God's Word because it makes God the first cause of everything, including temptations to sin which is directly against Scripture.

Sometimes you just have to choose to believe God's Word, even if you like the philosophy better.
 

Dave...

Member
@Dave...

So that which He only allows must have had another original first cause other than God ?

God is not the author of sin, but He is sovereign over it.

Man was created judicially good, but not inherently good. Sin was inevitable. God allowed it, decreed it from the foundations of the world, and used it for the purpose of His glorification. Man was created to rely on God for what is good, at least good in the sense of righteous standards. Man is not inherently good, like God is, so naturally, a best case scenario is to create us dependent on Him, who alone is good.

The Law is a reflection of the very character of God. Sin is a perversion of righteousness. God is righteousness. A house divided cannot stand. James 1:13.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
God is not the author of sin, but He is sovereign over it.

Man was created judicially good, but not inherently good. Sin was inevitable. God allowed it, decreed it from the foundations of the world, and used it for the purpose of His glorification. Man was created to rely on God for what is good, at least good in the sense of righteous standards. Man is not inherently good, like God is, so naturally, a best case scenario is to create us dependent on Him, who alone is good.

The Law is a reflection of the very character of God. Sin is a perversion of righteousness. God is righteousness. A house divided cannot stand. James 1:13.
Yes Gods purpose is the author of sin, God isnt the doer of sin.
 

Dave...

Member
Greetings Dave. Peace and love to you and your faimily.

Thankyou and likewise.
This sounds like the the theological subcategory of God's sovereign will that contains God's permissive will. For a more Reformed commentary...

"In ordinary language the term permission suggests some sort of positive sanction. To say that God “allows” or “permits” evil does not mean that He sanctions it in the sense that He grants approval to it. It is easy to discern that God never permits sin in the sense that He sanctions it in His creatures." (R.C. Sproul ©2018-2021 Monergism by CPR Foundation. All Rights Reserved)[/B]

I believe that the distinction is made with the term bare permission, which I disagree with. God had a purpose for sin. I believe it was inevitable, but He didn't cause it. He had to allow it, though, to allow for us, for reasons given in the OP.

There should be no doubt however, that when we speak of God's Permissive Will we understand that what God "permits", He has the authority and power to at any time stop or prevent what He allows. Further what God "permits" coincides with HIs perfect providential plan.

Exactly.
And here is another reason why I am a Compatiblist. What the Bible says we are "free" to will and do, God has ultimately allowed and ordained.

Again, spot on, as they say in the U.K.

I disagree with this heading. God is not bound or constrained by anything. You'll be hard pressed to find anything that suggests such a thing in the Bible.

I'll give you one obvious one. James 1:13-15.

Most people initially disagree until they think it through. It's really everywhere in Scripture. Every time God makes a promise, He is bound by it because He cannot lie, He is the Truth. If He lied, He would not be the truth, His Word would not be truth, and it all falls apart. God cannot act against His own nature.

Look at the lengths that He went through to make us right with Him again after the fall, while at the same time, not violating Himself. Jesus dying on the cross for our sin, establishing the righteousness of God to be imputed to us. He could have just said, come on in fellas, the waters fine. But He cannot be joined to that which is not Holy, as He is Holy. His justice is driven by His Holiness. This is why no OT believers were called Temples of the Holy Spirit. Only NT believers are Temples of God, only after the cross, and Pentecost, which ushered in the NT. Blood cleanses Temples, promises don't. OT believers who had already passed needed to wait for the cross too.

I think that the fact that everything He created was created good is significant in illustrating this idea also.
I agree with this. I do however think it has a far more reaching impact than just what you expressed in your OP.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

Yeah, His justice could just about apply to everything, if you really think about it.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Dave
 
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