Understanding God's sovereignty

[Brightfame52]

God never says that He is the first cause of sin, nor does He ever condone it, BF.
That He knew what would happen and provided for it far in advance, is not the same as Him being the cause of it:

" Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. " ( James 1:12-15 ).

Please read it again, my friend, and try not to let reason overtake what He has declared about Himself.

He specifically tells us that He is not the cause of sin...
Satan was the first sinner, and he baited us into following him.

That the Lord knew intimately what would happen and allowed it to happen ( perhaps even maneuvering things around knowing what would happen if He put things together a certain way ), speaks of His greater purpose in both His judgment and the salvation of His elect.

He is the first cause of sin because He is the first cause of Salvation. And nobody said He condones sin, where you get that from ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Your changing horses mid stream BF.

No one is questioning God purpose in sending Christ Jesus. John stated that clearly here:
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

We have and continue to question your assertion that "Gods purpose is the author of sin,"

God is the first cause of sin because He is the first cause of Salvation from sin for His chosen people which Glorifies Him. Are you saying God isnt the first cause of that which brings Him Glory ? Does sin bring Him Glory in and through the Lord Jesus Christ ?

 

[Silverhair]

Well then, God predetermined sin into the world since He predetermined the world in Christ Jesus. What does the Name Jesus mean ?

You are hopeless BF, you have made up your mind that you are right and the bible is wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

God is the first cause of sin because He is the first cause of Salvation from sin for His chosen people which Glorifies Him. Are you saying God isnt the first cause of that which brings Him Glory ? Does sin bring Him Glory in and through the Lord Jesus Christ ?

Your logic is flawed BF. You are making God the author of sin. Not a biblical view but you do seem quite comfortable with a number of non-biblical views.

 

[Paleouss]

Is God responsible for mankind's sin? That is, is he blameworthy for it?

Greetings my brother in Christ, Brightfame52. Grace and hope to you.

In my quote above I asked a question that I felt I needed answered to reveal your intent on what you are saying. You replied to me with what seems to me to be a vague response. You replied...

God is the first cause of sin because He is the first cause of Salvation from sin. Or do you suppose God got the idea of Salvation from sin outside of Himself ?

This doesn't really answer the question, is God blameworthy for the sin in the world?

So is God blameworthy for the sin in the world?

Unless you are actually trying to imply He is blameworthy for all sin, and if this is the case, then this would seem to be a non-Christian view you are trying to preach (and I think you are Christian, so it must be something else).

I affirm that the Holy Scripture teaches us that God “worked out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Eph 1:11) before the creation of the world. This was God the Father working out “everything to its proper end” (Prov 16:4), numbering the days of all humankind “before one of them came to be” (Psa 139:16), so that His “purpose [would] stand” (Isa 46:10).

All of this, we'll call sovereignty, does not dictate that God is culpable for the sin in the world. All theologians throughout history, I'll repeat that, all theologians throughout history rightly claim the sovereignty of God but deny He is culpable for sin in the world. It becomes incumbent on them, the theologians, to then explain how and why. And all that I have read attempt such.

It's not ok, in my view, that we say God is the first cause of all things but then not explain why or how He is not culpable for the sin in the world. Because the Holy Scripture tells us that "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone" (James 1:13).

If one doesn't know how to reconcile God's sovereignty and God not being culpable for sin in the world. Then one should just claim that. I don't know how the two are reconciled. I just know God is sovereign and He is not culpable for the sin in the world. But to claim sovereignty and then imply or leave unsaid when the question is asked if God is culpable...that's a bad thing (imo).


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure.

 

[Paleouss]

Thankyou and likewise.

Greetings again, Dave. I pray that your week is a blessed one. Thank you for your friendly and thoughtful post.

you had written in your OP...

God is bound, or constrained by His attributes.

I disagreed that God is constrained by His attributes in a post to you... and then you replied...

I'll give you one obvious one. James 1:13-15.

I provided the verses you presented as prof text that God is constrained by HIs attributes.

(Jas 1:13-15 NKJV) 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

I can only presume that the more precise point in which you are focussing are the words "God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone" (James 1:13). I do realize that there have been some philosophers and theologians, but philosophers mostly, that have attempted to assert that God is restricted in some way, i.e., not free, because He is said to "not tempt anyone". I disagree with the analysis of these philosophers.

In conclusion, I disagree that not desiring to tempt is a lack of freedom. Doing what one desires is freedom. Saying that not doing the very thing one doesn't want to do is a lack of freedom is, well, nonsense. God is free to not tempt because He desires to do only good. When He is said to not tempt anyone, He is exercising His freedom to do only good.

Look at the lengths that He went through to make us right with Him again after the fall, while at the same time, not violating Himself.

Yes, I agree. God demonstrated through His creation His holy, just, and faithful attributes. The sculptor is revealed through His sculpture.

His justice is driven by His Holiness

All His attributes work in concert with one anther. There is not one that is the primary that drives the others, or one that overbalances another. All work as one in a demonstration of who God is. This isn't called restraint...it's called the revelation of perfection in concert.

This is why no OT believers were called Temples of the Holy Spirit. Only NT believers are Temples of God, only after the cross, and Pentecost, which ushered in the NT. Blood cleanses Temples, promises don't. OT believers who had already passed needed to wait for the cross too.

I got lost somehow on how this relates to God being restrained by His attributes, i.e., not free.

I think that the fact that everything He created was created good is significant in illustrating this idea also.

That which was created is a reflection of who God is. Not a restriction on what God could do. The fact that everything was created good says nothing to what God can or cannot do.

Great conversation Dave

Peace to you brother.