Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
He is the first cause of sin because He is the first cause of Salvation. And nobody said He condones sin, where you get that from ?
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Understanding God's sovereignty
- Thread starter Dave...
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
God is the first cause of sin because He is the first cause of Salvation from sin for His chosen people which Glorifies Him. Are you saying God isnt the first cause of that which brings Him Glory ? Does sin bring Him Glory in and through the Lord Jesus Christ ?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You are hopeless BF, you have made up your mind that you are right and the bible is wrong.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your logic is flawed BF. You are making God the author of sin. Not a biblical view but you do seem quite comfortable with a number of non-biblical views.
Greetings my brother in Christ, Brightfame52. Grace and hope to you.
In my quote above I asked a question that I felt I needed answered to reveal your intent on what you are saying. You replied to me with what seems to me to be a vague response. You replied...
This doesn't really answer the question, is God blameworthy for the sin in the world?
So is God blameworthy for the sin in the world?
Unless you are actually trying to imply He is blameworthy for all sin, and if this is the case, then this would seem to be a non-Christian view you are trying to preach (and I think you are Christian, so it must be something else).
I affirm that the Holy Scripture teaches us that God “worked out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Eph 1:11) before the creation of the world. This was God the Father working out “everything to its proper end” (Prov 16:4), numbering the days of all humankind “before one of them came to be” (Psa 139:16), so that His “purpose [would] stand” (Isa 46:10).
All of this, we'll call sovereignty, does not dictate that God is culpable for the sin in the world. All theologians throughout history, I'll repeat that, all theologians throughout history rightly claim the sovereignty of God but deny He is culpable for sin in the world. It becomes incumbent on them, the theologians, to then explain how and why. And all that I have read attempt such.
It's not ok, in my view, that we say God is the first cause of all things but then not explain why or how He is not culpable for the sin in the world. Because the Holy Scripture tells us that "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone" (James 1:13).
If one doesn't know how to reconcile God's sovereignty and God not being culpable for sin in the world. Then one should just claim that. I don't know how the two are reconciled. I just know God is sovereign and He is not culpable for the sin in the world. But to claim sovereignty and then imply or leave unsaid when the question is asked if God is culpable...that's a bad thing (imo).
Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure.
Greetings again, Dave. I pray that your week is a blessed one. Thank you for your friendly and thoughtful post.
you had written in your OP...
I disagreed that God is constrained by His attributes in a post to you... and then you replied...
I provided the verses you presented as prof text that God is constrained by HIs attributes.
(Jas 1:13-15 NKJV) 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
I can only presume that the more precise point in which you are focussing are the words "God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone" (James 1:13). I do realize that there have been some philosophers and theologians, but philosophers mostly, that have attempted to assert that God is restricted in some way, i.e., not free, because He is said to "not tempt anyone". I disagree with the analysis of these philosophers.
In conclusion, I disagree that not desiring to tempt is a lack of freedom. Doing what one desires is freedom. Saying that not doing the very thing one doesn't want to do is a lack of freedom is, well, nonsense. God is free to not tempt because He desires to do only good. When He is said to not tempt anyone, He is exercising His freedom to do only good.
Yes, I agree. God demonstrated through His creation His holy, just, and faithful attributes. The sculptor is revealed through His sculpture.
All His attributes work in concert with one anther. There is not one that is the primary that drives the others, or one that overbalances another. All work as one in a demonstration of who God is. This isn't called restraint...it's called the revelation of perfection in concert.
I got lost somehow on how this relates to God being restrained by His attributes, i.e., not free.
That which was created is a reflection of who God is. Not a restriction on what God could do. The fact that everything was created good says nothing to what God can or cannot do.
Great conversation Dave
Peace to you brother.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
To me, it's as if you keep repeating that He is the cause of sin, BF.
The Lord says that He doesn't tempt ( cause ) men to sin, but that we are drawn away by our own desires into a mess of our own making.
Neither does He condone sin as evidenced in both His Law given to Moses, and the reason that He saved us from His wrath...
Because He views sin as an affront to His holiness.
I'm not sure how much clearer His own words in the book of James can be.
God is not the cause ( neither is He a cause ) of sin, sir.
If you wish to hold to something that the Scripture does not, I find that I must point it out and I must disagree with you strongly.
Good evening to you.
Hey
I had to think awhile on how I was going to answer this.
It took me a while to figure out exactly what you're saying, but I think that I got it now. Consider that God's desire is also constrained by His attributes, or His character. It's desire that breads temptation, and God cannot be tempted (James), because His desires are constrained by His character.
It's different for us. Paul said that while He desired to do good, he was incapable of doing it. Here also, the desire isn't free, because the character constrains.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Jesus said the same thing when He stated that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Remember, when He was called good, His reply, in His humanity, was "why do you call me good, God alone is good.". God is the good tree, that's why anything good that comes from us is an undeserved gift from God, the fruit of the Spirit. The flesh cannot do anything good by righteous standards. It can desire it, but cannot do it. Jesus, in answering some who did not believe Him, said, if you do not believe, then believe the works that I do, so that you may know that I Am He. You can tell a tree by it's fruit. Now God can do all things, but only in result. We see the constraint in action at the cross. God's justice must be satisfied. Jesus must be sinless for atonement. Jesus had to fulfill everything according to the Law for us, in our place. All the prophecies must be fulfilled. All so that we could have the relationship restored with God through Jesus that we lost through Adam.
God cannot lie (Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18), He cannot be tempted by evil (James 1:12), or deny Himself 2 Timothy 2:13). God's desires are grounded in His nature. He is constrained by His character.
Dave
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Does sin bring Him Glory in and through the Lord Jesus Christ ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Dave G
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
He is Dave, the First and Primary Cause, His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus dictates that Eph 3:11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Sin does not bring glory to God. Faithfulness does.
Christ was faithful unto death even death on a cross. [Php 2:8]
From your question you disagree with what Paul said here:
Rom 3:8 And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?; as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
You would tell them to continue sinning so as to glorify God, that is foolish BF but you have to say that to support your twisted undersatnding of God's word.
Greetings to you Brightfame52. Peace and love to you and yours.
A) God is the first cause of all sin, but
(B) God his not blameworthy for this sin, because
(C) God devised a purpose in Christ Jesus wherein sin would be defeated.
Basically you have just said that the end justifies the means. In other words, God can cause sin because His end justifies His means. But I don't think you can find this in scripture. At least not without including an important component. Which is this, the Holy Scripture says about man's intention that "you meant evil against me" (Gen 50:20), but "God meant it for good" (Gen 50:20).
That is, man is responsible for evil in the world and evil intentions. Man is culpable for evil and their own ill intentions. It is said that "through one man sin entered the world" (Rom 5:12). It doesn't say, by God sin entered the world. It doesn't say, since God is the first cause then God is the reason sin is in the world. It says, sin is in the world because of "one man".
Keep seeking God's truth brother
I think I have been pleasant and hospitable in most my conversation with you. I'm not clear as to why you return this hospitality with using terms like 'dumb' and 'unlearned' regarding my questions.
Good. We agree.
How you reconcile this would seem to miss the mark. You say...
A) God is the first cause of all sin, but
(B) God his not blameworthy for this sin, because
(C) God devised a purpose in Christ Jesus wherein sin would be defeated.
Basically you have just said that the end justifies the means. In other words, God can cause sin because His end justifies His means. But I don't think you can find this in scripture. At least not without including an important component. Which is this, the Holy Scripture says about man's intention that "you meant evil against me" (Gen 50:20), but "God meant it for good" (Gen 50:20).
That is, man is responsible for evil in the world and evil intentions. Man is culpable for evil and their own ill intentions. It is said that "through one man sin entered the world" (Rom 5:12). It doesn't say, by God sin entered the world. It doesn't say, since God is the first cause then God is the reason sin is in the world. It says, sin is in the world because of "one man".
Keep seeking God's truth brother
Greetings again Dave. Thank you for your thoughtful post and your gracious attempt to understand my ramblings. 
You suggest that it is Paul's character that restrains him. But I think it is Paul's finiteness that restrains him. I suppose we could agree that it is Paul's finite character that restrains him. A finite character can be restrained by a more superior character, even if that superior character is also finite. Thus how Satan makes us slaves to sin through deception even though he is also of finite character.
But God is not finite in any way. He is not conflicted by two natures, not restrained by finiteness (because He is infinite and Omni-everyting). Nothing therefore constrains or restrains God. He is the very definition of free.
To bring in a Thomas Aquinas term but my own logic, God not being able to be a 'privation' of His own self attributes, isn't a limitation. I guess one could say that God could not be the absence of Himself. But that just sounds like nonsense.
I guess one could say that because God cannot deny Himself, He cannot be a slave. But what sense does it make to say this is God not being free? Or that God is restricted in some way because He cannot be a slave?
But then I muse about the Incarnation and Christ coming as a servant to others. I wonder if God can even become a slave through the incarnation, thus even dispelling this supposed restraint or restriction.
Great conversation Dave...
Peace, Grace, and hope to you.
I agree that mankind in their depravity is not free, i.e., they are slaves to sin. I further agree that mankind, after salvation and regeneration, may have two natures. Which is then to be fully restored to one nature after the resurrection. Therefore, the desires of the flesh are still strong as our desires of the spirit grow.
You suggest that it is Paul's character that restrains him. But I think it is Paul's finiteness that restrains him. I suppose we could agree that it is Paul's finite character that restrains him. A finite character can be restrained by a more superior character, even if that superior character is also finite. Thus how Satan makes us slaves to sin through deception even though he is also of finite character.
But God is not finite in any way. He is not conflicted by two natures, not restrained by finiteness (because He is infinite and Omni-everyting). Nothing therefore constrains or restrains God. He is the very definition of free.
All this seems to be about finite human beings and the flesh. Which I agree, mankind is retrained and constrained by various factors. But using the finite as an example of the infinite seems misused.
It seems to me that the Titus 1:1-2 verse is one of assurance of faithfulness not a lesson of God's limitations of constraint. It is written that God "who cannot lie" as an assurance that God is faithful and true in our "hope of enteral life" which God "promised before time began" (Tit 1:2). Which basically means God is consistently God, eternally. Never stopping to be God, never ending to be consistent. Thus one can count on that fact.
To bring in a Thomas Aquinas term but my own logic, God not being able to be a 'privation' of His own self attributes, isn't a limitation. I guess one could say that God could not be the absence of Himself. But that just sounds like nonsense.
Yes, I agree. God is infinite and there is no power greater than God to tempt Him or overcome Him into being something He is not. Because He is not flawed and is infinite, He is free to be that which He desires and not being overcome by something He does not desire. But Paul, being finite, is sometimes overcome and does that which He does not wish to do.
This seems to support my position more. That is, what is this freedom that would affirm that freedom is the denying of one's self? It seems to me that the very fact that one deny's themselves is proof that one is not really free. Only those who are slaves, deny themselves at the expense of who they really are. We, as slaves to sin, deny ourselves and who we really were created to be. This denying of one's self is not freedom, but slavery.
I guess one could say that because God cannot deny Himself, He cannot be a slave. But what sense does it make to say this is God not being free? Or that God is restricted in some way because He cannot be a slave?
But then I muse about the Incarnation and Christ coming as a servant to others. I wonder if God can even become a slave through the incarnation, thus even dispelling this supposed restraint or restriction.
Great conversation Dave...
Peace, Grace, and hope to you.
I disagree that "ordains" means to allow. That claim is simply a redefinition of a word to bring reality back into the false beliefs of the dark ages.
Ordain means to establish or predestine something.
The actual biblical doctrine of God's sovereignty, adopted in the OP, is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.
Similarly, the OP definition of "good" misses the mark. What God created was suitable for His purpose, thus "good" but was not necessarily good from the viewpoint of Adam because of the consequence of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Lastly I disagree with the concept God only allows and does not cause the hardening of our human hearts. Clearly scripture says God hardens hearts. Look at Romans 11:7, where their hearts were hardened. The verb is passive, meaning God acted upon them, not that they acted upon themselves. Or look at John 12:40 where "He" (the Lord) has hardened (active verb) their hearts. The case is overwhelming.
Ordain means to establish or predestine something.
The actual biblical doctrine of God's sovereignty, adopted in the OP, is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.
Similarly, the OP definition of "good" misses the mark. What God created was suitable for His purpose, thus "good" but was not necessarily good from the viewpoint of Adam because of the consequence of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Lastly I disagree with the concept God only allows and does not cause the hardening of our human hearts. Clearly scripture says God hardens hearts. Look at Romans 11:7, where their hearts were hardened. The verb is passive, meaning God acted upon them, not that they acted upon themselves. Or look at John 12:40 where "He" (the Lord) has hardened (active verb) their hearts. The case is overwhelming.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
How is God and Christ Glorified ? How was Christ faithful unto death ? Death for what ? Why did He have to be faithful unto death ? Did His death Glorify God the Father ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Is God the first cause of Christ defeating sin ? Is it based upon His wisdom ? Is He the fist cause of His wisdom, or was He responding to another first cause ? Again your questions lack understanding
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Paleouss
Sure because God purposed it ! What everyone did in the Garden that day Gen 3 was according to Gods will, it could not have gone any other way. Christ was already setup to redeem Gods elect before that day came into being 1 Pet 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Sure because God purposed it ! What everyone did in the Garden that day Gen 3 was according to Gods will, it could not have gone any other way. Christ was already setup to redeem Gods elect before that day came into being 1 Pet 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Hi Dave
The bold part in your quote.
I believe that what God says that He is, and His attributes are the same thing. If God says He cannot lie, It's not what I think He is, rather, It's what He said He is in His Word. So I can bank on it. From these claims and promises, we begin to see Him through His Word. In fact, (maybe I already wrote this earlier, I don't remember), the Law is a reflection of the the very character of God. So, If He says that all things work for the good of those who love Him, I know that promise does not really on a desire, but is grounded in the very nature and character of God (numbers 23:19).