Understanding God's sovereignty

[Silverhair]

1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

According to that verse why did God send Christ into the world and did it glorify Him

What do we see in that verse BF:
1] before we loved God
2] He loved us
3] He sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins

As I have said more than once BF, Christ's faithfulness glorified the Father. Why do you have such a problem with that?

 

[Brightfame52]

What do we see in that verse BF:
1] before we loved God
2] He loved us
3] He sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins

As I have said more than once BF, Christ's faithfulness glorified the Father. Why do you have such a problem with that?

Was Christ being a propitiation for sins Glorifying to God ? Yes or No ?

 

[Silverhair]

Was Christ being a propitiation for sins Glorifying to God ? Yes or No ?

It seems you struggle with Christ glorifying God by His faithfulness. Why is that BF?

 

[Brightfame52]

It seems you struggle with Christ glorifying God by His faithfulness. Why is that BF?

Was Christ being a propitiation for sins Glorifying to God ? Yes or No ? Wasn't His Faithfulness part of His going to the Cross to die for sin or no ? So you dont even make sense.

 

[Brightfame52]

It seems you struggle with Christ glorifying God by His faithfulness. Why is that BF?

Was He faithful here dying for sins of the people ? Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

 

[JesusFan]

Christ's faithfulness glorified God. That is something that you just do not seem able to grasp.
His whole life glorified God BF.

The Cross was the top achievement God ever had done period

 

[Brightfame52]

The Cross was the top achievement God ever had done period

He act like Christs faithfulness/obedience had nothing to do with the Cross for the sins of His People. Thats the main reason He came into the world. He said once Jn 12 27-28

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. What hour is speaking of ?

 

[Van]

I disagree with the OP because "ordains" does not mean to allow. That claim is simply a redefinition of a word to bring reality back into the false beliefs of the dark ages.

Ordain means to establish or predestine something.

The actual biblical doctrine of God's sovereignty, adopted in the OP, is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

Similarly, the OP definition of "good" misses the mark. What God created was suitable for His purpose, thus "good" but was not necessarily good from the viewpoint of Adam because of the consequence of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Lastly I disagree with the concept God only allows and does not cause the hardening of our human hearts. Clearly scripture says God hardens hearts. Look at Romans 11:7, where their hearts were hardened. The verb is passive, meaning God acted upon them, not that they acted upon themselves. Or look at John 12:40 where "He" (the Lord) has hardened (active verb) their hearts. The case is overwhelming.

 

[Silverhair]

He act like Christs faithfulness/obedience had nothing to do with the Cross for the sins of His People. Thats the main reason He came into the world. He said once Jn 12 27-28

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. What hour is speaking of ?

You do seem to have a short memory BF. Or my likely a selective memory.

Told you this in post # 53 but it seems you forgot so here it is again.

Sin does not bring glory to God. Faithfulness does.

Christ was faithful unto death even death on a cross. [Php 2:8]

 

[Brightfame52]

You do seem to have a short memory BF. Or my likely a selective memory.

Told you this in post # 53 but it seems you forgot so here it is again.

Sin does not bring glory to God. Faithfulness does.

Christ was faithful unto death even death on a cross. [Php 2:8]

Why you dont want to acknowledge that Christs Death for Sin Glorified God

 

[Dave...]

I disagree that "ordains" means to allow. That claim is simply a redefinition of a word to bring reality back into the false beliefs of the dark ages.

Ordain means to establish or predestine something.

The actual biblical doctrine of God's sovereignty, adopted in the OP, is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

Hey van.

I'm guessing this was meant for me, but I'm not sure. My definition of ordain doesn't fit your description of my definition. That's why I'm not sure who this was directed towards. The term ordain allows for both predestine (positively cause) and positively allowing, a permissive will, as they call it, but not bare permission. Ordain encompasses God's complete sovereignty. So, predestine can be ordained, but ordained is not necessarily always predestine. You can probably find a verse that says that people were ordained to hell, but you'll never find one that says that God predestined anyone to hell. You'll find that both the terms ordained and predestined are used to describe the elect.

Using Scripture as my boundaries, this is the best sense that I can make out it. It holds true to Scripture as far as I know. There are some bad translations, and theologians, like Calvin, who used the terms outside of these boundaries, and you can see the confusion that it causes. People claiming that Calvin believed in double predestination. When in fact, theologically speaking, he did not. As Spurgeon once said, in disgust I suppose, that these discussions are usually more about the terms and there definition of those terms than anything else. It's easy to read something into what someone said without clear ideas of what the terms mean Biblically.

Similarly, the OP definition of "good" misses the mark. What God created was suitable for His purpose, thus "good" but was not necessarily good from the viewpoint of Adam because of the consequence of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I know we can get technical and pose questions 'Does God do a thing because it is good or is the thing good because God does it? I really didn't want to get into all that. Again, based on the boundaries from Scripture, God never creates evil, or sin. Sometimes all the context is not made available to us, but He seems to have gone out of His way to make sure that there is no misunderstanding in this matter. All that He created was good. Even today, every child born, while born with a sinful nature, is innocent due to their ignorance, just like Adam and Eve. I don't believe that this common theme with God's creation is just a coincidence.

Lastly I disagree with the concept God only allows and does not cause the hardening of our human hearts. Clearly scripture says God hardens hearts. Look at Romans 11:7, where their hearts were hardened. The verb is passive, meaning God acted upon them, not that they acted upon themselves. Or look at John 12:40 where "He" (the Lord) has hardened (active verb) their hearts. The case is overwhelming.

But there is context to consider. First, this is not a random hardening but a judicial one. Secondly, this hardening doesn't specify the details. Many times Scripture says that God did something, when in fact, He simply allowed it to happen, allowed Satan to rob, bling, harden, etc.
Also, that hardening was to provoke the Jews, but it was not a complete hardening. God can harden by simply moving away from them. Consider vs. 35-36 in that same chapter of John 12. And in Romans...

23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Silverhair]

Why you dont want to acknowledge that Christs Death for Sin Glorified God

You just do not like that way I respond BF.

I said Christ's faithfulness glorified the Father. His whole like glorified the Father. You seem to think it was only His death that did so.

Why do you continue to deny that it was Christ's whole life that glorified the Father?

 

[Brightfame52]

You just do not like that way I respond BF.

I said Christ's faithfulness glorified the Father. His whole like glorified the Father. You seem to think it was only His death that did so.

Why do you continue to deny that it was Christ's whole life that glorified the Father?

So Im going to conclude you reject the premise that Christs Death for sinners Glorified God

 

[Silverhair]

So Im going to conclude you reject the premise that Christs Death for sinners Glorified God

Well since you have made any number of false conclusions regarding salvation what is one more on your part.

 

[Brightfame52]

Well since you have made any number of false conclusions regarding salvation what is one more on your part.

Its wierd that a person rejects the fact that God was Glorified by Christs defeat of sin and death.

 

[Van]

Hey van.

I'm guessing this was meant for me, but I'm not sure. My definition of ordain doesn't fit your description of my definition. That's why I'm not sure who this was directed towards. The term ordain allows for both predestine (positively cause) and positively allowing, a permissive will, as they call it, but not bare permission. Ordain encompasses God's complete sovereignty. So, predestine can be ordained, but ordained is not necessarily always predestine. You can probably find a verse that says that people were ordained to hell, but you'll never find one that says that God predestined anyone to hell. You'll find that both the terms ordained and predestined are used to describe the elect.

Using Scripture as my boundaries, this is the best sense that I can make out it. It holds true to Scripture as far as I know. There are some bad translations, and theologians, like Calvin, who used the terms outside of these boundaries, and you can see the confusion that it causes. People claiming that Calvin believed in double predestination. When in fact, theologically speaking, he did not. As Spurgeon once said, in disgust I suppose, that these discussions are usually more about the terms and there definition of those terms than anything else. It's easy to read something into what someone said without clear ideas of what the terms mean Biblically.



I know we can get technical and pose questions 'Does God do a thing because it is good or is the thing good because God does it? I really didn't want to get into all that. Again, based on the boundaries from Scripture, God never creates evil, or sin. Sometimes all the context is not made available to us, but He seems to have gone out of His way to make sure that there is no misunderstanding in this matter. All that He created was good. Even today, every child born, while born with a sinful nature, is innocent due to their ignorance, just like Adam and Eve. I don't believe that this common theme with God's creation is just a coincidence.




But there is context to consider. First, this is not a random hardening but a judicial one. Secondly, this hardening doesn't specify the details. Many times Scripture says that God did something, when in fact, He simply allowed it to happen, allowed Satan to rob, bling, harden, etc.
Also, that hardening was to provoke the Jews, but it was not a complete hardening. God can harden by simply moving away from them. Consider vs. 35-36 in that same chapter of John 12. And in Romans...

23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Please provide a dictionary definition that includes to allow in the meaning of ordain. That is your claim, but it is simply redefining the word.

John 3:18 says we were predestined as condemned. This is a consequence of the Fall of Adam. We were made sinners. Romans 5:19

The KJV translates several Hebrew words as ordain, but none of these words were ever translated as "allow." But some were rendered "cause."

Using Strongs number, H3245 at 1 Chronicles 9:22 and Psalm 8:2. H7760 at 1 Chronicles 17:9, Psalm 81:5, Habakkuk 1:12. H8239 at Isaiah 26:12. H6213 at Numbers 28:6, 1 Kings 12:32, 1 Kings 12:33, 2 Chronicles 11:15, Esther 9:27. H3559 at Psalm 8:3. H6186 at Psalm 132:17, Isaiah 30:33. H5414 at 2 Kings 23:5, Jeremiah 1:5. H4483 at Daniel 2:24.

I use scripture as my boundary too.

 

[kyredneck]

Understanding God's sovereignty​

Not hard to understand to me! Seems pretty straight forward...

Psalms 115:3

New International Version
Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

New Living Translation
Our God is in the heavens, and he does as he wishes.

English Standard Version
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Berean Standard Bible
Our God is in heaven; He does as He pleases.

King James Bible
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

New King James Version
But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

New American Standard Bible
But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

NASB 1995
But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

NASB 1977
But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Legacy Standard Bible
But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Amplified Bible
But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

Christian Standard Bible
Our God is in heaven and does whatever he pleases.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases.

American Standard Version
But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever he pleased.

Contemporary English Version
Our God is in the heavens, doing as he chooses.

English Revised Version
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he pleased.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Our God is in heaven. He does whatever he wants.

Good News Translation
Our God is in heaven; he does whatever he wishes.

International Standard Version
when our God is in the heavens and he does whatever he desires?

NET Bible
Our God is in heaven! He does whatever he pleases!

New Heart English Bible
But our God is in the heavens. He does whatever he pleases.

Webster's Bible Translation
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatever he pleased.

 

[Silverhair]

Its wierd that a person rejects the fact that God was Glorified by Christs defeat of sin and death.

When did I do that BF. How many times have I said His faithfulness glorified the Father.

 

[Salty]

This thread will be closed no sooner than 1200 hrs GMT 8 am (Thr) EDT

 

[Brightfame52]

When did I do that BF. How many times have I said His faithfulness glorified the Father.

You act like it. Everything He did Glorified the Father, God is well pleased in Him. Yet you have yet to admit for some strange reason that His Death for sin Glorified God, you seem to want to seperate things, like His faithfulness did, but His dying for sin didnt. Why was the Son of God manifested according to 1 Jn 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Did the works of the devil have anything to do with sin ?