No person can come to Christ by their own freewill ! 2

[Silverhair]

Scriptural support please.

I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life Deu_30:19

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD. Jos_24:15

Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waiver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him, but if Baal is god, follow him. 1Ki_18:21

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD. Jer_29:13-14

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing”. Mat_23:37 & Luk_13:34

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mar_1:15

...There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words. Joh_12:48

God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. Act_17:27

...if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom_10:9

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph_1:13

That should be enough for you to see man's free will is in both the OT % NT.

I do like this from provervbs

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

 

[Silverhair]

When one is drawn by God and or Christ that's salvation that's regeneration and the effectual call!

So again you are promoting universalism BF. You have to deny the word of God if you hold to your false religion.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

Was Christ lifted up BF?

God has a love for His creation and desires all to come to repentance or do you disagree with this?
Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Christ went to the cross for all of humanity BF.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

It is only because you have followed the false teachings of man that you continue to deny the clear word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Also the word draw means to persuade or win over

Strong's Greek: 1670. ἑλκύω (helkó) -- To draw, to drag

BF you have just proven free will of man.

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)

The man has to respond in faith to the drawing but is not certain that they will do so as not all are be persuaded or won over. Some will hear the gospel massage and reject the offer of salvation.

 

[cjab]

(Deu 30:1 KJV) And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

(Deu 30:2 KJV) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

(Deu 30:3 KJV) That then the LORD thy God will...

(Deu 30:4 KJV) If [any] of thine be driven out unto the outmost [parts] of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee,...

(Deu 30:5 KJV) And the LORD thy God will...

(Deu 30:6 KJV) And the LORD thy God will...

(Deu 30:7 KJV) And the LORD thy God will...

(Deu 30:17 KJV) But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

(Deu 30:18 KJV) I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

Free Will—A Slave

A Sermon (No. 52)

Delivered on Sabbath Morning, December 2, 1855, by the

REV. C. H. Spurgeon

At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."—John 5:40.

This is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are: First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved. Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words "will," or "will not" in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous.

Freewill is often equated with choice. We make choices with no thought of consequences. All choices have consequences! God's children who are seeking to be bond-servants, from my experience, look back over their lifetime of choices only to realize that their choices followed the path through life that was directed by God's will for them! Praise God!

Examples of men exercising their "freewill":
(Jdg 4:7 KJV) And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.
Sisera had no idea he was subject to God's will. He thought he was simply fulfilling his military duty.

(Jon 1:2 KJV) Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.(Jon 1:3 KJV) But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.

Jonah exercised his "freewill" to flee to Tarshish. How did that workout?(Jon 1:17 KJV) Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Saul was exercising his "freewill": Act 9:1 KJV) And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,(Act 9:2 KJV) And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

God has no regard for Saul's "freewill"" Act 9:3 KJV) And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven Act 9:4 KJV) And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

(Jas 4:13 KJV) Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain Jas 4:14 KJV) Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.(Jas 4:15 KJV) For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.(Jas 4:16 KJV) But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

First, I don't pretend to be an Arminian. See here for a brief summary of why I would rather go with Provisionism than Arminianism. "Total inability" consequential to the fall is surely not made out. Even Able, son of Adam put that fallacy to bed. Humanity didn't all become Cainites subsequent to the fall. The lineage of the godly was preserved down into Noah's family and beyond.

Second, there are degrees of free will. Jesus came to give the Jews the highest freedom. John 8:36 "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." I acknowledge freewill per the biblical conception is impossible without appropriating God's grace. But as Jesus said, God will hardly deny his grace to those who look for it: "For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Matt 7:8. Sometimes loss of free will is linked to genuine ignorance, rather than love of falsity, when the way to God becomes beset with thorns.

Third, in respect of man's ability to appropriate the grace of the gospel, the bible is clear that: "God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." Rom 9:18. That is to say, there will be some men whose wickedness is cast by God as rejecting God himself in full cognisance of God's divine nature, that the advent of grace can only result in the hardening of his heart (cf. Rom 1, etc., and also Pharoah - for in that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, he hardened it himself against the divine revelation).

I see the "total inability" fallacy as based on confounding ignorance of God with "love of falsity," or the lost sheep with satan's sheep. Jesus was careful to distinguish between the two. The lost sheep have enough free will to come to Christ, when the grace of God appears to them Titus 2:11.

I made it clear that the biblical concept of free will should always be seen as commensurate with God's grace and presence. Jesus said "The scripture says 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God'." Matt 4:4. This repudiates any possibility of freewill apart from God.

Thus Saul/Paul. As long as he remained in ignorance and unbelief, he had no true "free will," and yet he wasn't "totally unable" to come to Christ. It was just that he didn't know who Christ was (probably he was only in receipt of malicious hearsay up to his conversion). His unbelief was perceived by God to be due to the barrier of his ignorance and unbelief consequent on that, per 1 Tim 1:13. In revealing himself directly to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus, his ignorance was dispelled. Saul/Paul submitted to the divine revelation and was saved.

So in what sense can a Calvinist maintain that Saul/Paul was unable to choose Christ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Jesus said some will not come to Him Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The reason for that is simple, they have not been given to Christ by the Father in Divine Election, because Jesus went on to say Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Some out of mankind has been given to Christ, pertaining to election, Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

These will come to Him that they may have life in contrast to them in Jn 5:40 who will not come ! 9

 

[Brightfame52]

You can post "taint so" till the cows come home, Calvinism simply reads into John 6:44 what anyone can see is not there.
There is not need to redefine the meaning according to Calvinist doctrine, that is simply reading Calvinist doctrine into the text.

Here is an objective viewpoint:
66tn Or “attracts him,” or “pulls him.” The word is used of pulling or dragging, often by force. It is even used once of magnetic attraction (A. Oepke, TDNT 2:503). (Net Bible footnote)

Without God's revelation of the gospel, no one is able to trust in Christ Jesus, and when people do hear and understand the gospel, they are attracted to Christ because of His lovingkindness in dying for the lost. And of course, if God does not allow a person to trust in Christ, they cannot, such as when God hardens their hearts, Romans 11:7.

If we take a look at Jeremiah 31:3 we see two ways the verse is translated, one, God draws (attracts) people with His eternal loving kindness. The alternate view nullifies the attraction by making the second clause redundant. God loves with eternal lovingkindness, therefore He continues to extend His lovingkindness. Obviously this rendering is simply an effort to eliminate the inspired evidence God attracts people with His lovingkindness.

Drawing is an inward powerful work of God, its not just hearing the Gospel, God shines the light of the Gospel into the heart 2 Cor 4:6

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the [Gospel]light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Thats why they are persuaded, the Gospel comes not in word only but with power of God the Spirit 1 Thess 1

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

So again you are promoting universalism BF.

Again false accusation since you resist the truth

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you have just proven free will of man.

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)

The man has to respond in faith to the drawing but is not certain that they will do so as not all are be persuaded or won over. Some will hear the gospel massage and reject the offer of salvation.

The drawing saves them and gives them faith, persuasion. Faith is being persuaded, its made of the word peithō:

1. persuade
   1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
   2. to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
   3. to tranquillise
   4. to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
2. be persuaded

Faith to believe accompanies the drawing friend.

 

[Van]

Drawing is an inward powerful work of God, its not just hearing the Gospel, God shines the light of the Gospel into the heart 2 Cor 4:6

SNIP

Being drawn by the Father, as said in John 6:44, refers to being attracted by God's revelation of His lovingkindness. The Greek word is used metaphorically to mean attract.

 

[Brightfame52]

Being drawn by the Father, as said in John 6:44, refers to being attracted by God's revelation of His lovingkindness. The Greek word is used metaphorically to mean attract.

You not listening to me

 

[Van]

You not listening to me

You are addressing me and not the topic. Being drawn by the Father, as said in John 6:44, refers to being attracted by God's revelation of His lovingkindness. The Greek word is used metaphorically to mean attract.

 

[Brightfame52]

You are addressing me and not the topic. Being drawn by the Father, as said in John 6:44, refers to being attracted by God's revelation of His lovingkindness. The Greek word is used metaphorically to mean attract.

I'm doing both. I started the topic BTW and I have went into details explaining it. Drawing is Salvation being applied to the elect child of grace or Sheep of Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

The drawing saves them and gives them faith,

So again you are promoting universalism BF.

Christ was very clear in His statement or do you not believe what He said?

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
Note The word "people" is not in the Greek text but is supplied for stylistic reasons and for clarity (cf. KJV "all men")

Christ said He will draw all to Himself and you want to equate the drawing with them being saved and once saved they are then given faith to believe.

You made two errors in one short sentence;
1] drawing does not save anyone.
All are drawn but not all will trust in God for their salvation

2] We are not given faith.
Faith is a response to the drawing by the gospel and conviction of sin etc.

You continue to say that the drawing saves which means that all are saved as all are drawn and that my friend means you support and promote universalism.

 

[Silverhair]

I'm doing both. I started the topic BTW and I have went into details explaining it. Drawing is Salvation being applied to the elect child of grace or Sheep of Christ.

That is your misunderstanding of the word of God through your continued cherry picking of verses and ignoring of the context of those verses that you think support your view.

You are doing just what the WOF leaders and the cu*ts do.

You are misusing the word of God to support non-biblical views.

 

[Silverhair]

Drawing is an inward powerful work of God, its not just hearing the Gospel, God shines the light of the Gospel into the heart 2 Cor 4:6

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the [Gospel]light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Thats why they are persuaded, the Gospel comes not in word only but with power of God the Spirit 1 Thess 1

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Yes the gospel is powerful and those that hear and respond in faith will be saved. But you seem to think that only some hear it or that God only makes to powerful to some.

The reality is that even of those that hear the gospel message some will freely accept the truth and some will freely reject the truth.

 

[Van]

I'm doing both. I started the topic BTW and I have went into details explaining it. Drawing is Salvation being applied to the elect child of grace or Sheep of Christ.

Complete fiction, a false doctrine without a shred of biblical support.
1) Scripture precludes any individual being chosen before creation.
2) Fallen humanity are the sheep without a shepherd.
3) I refuted your OP claims in post #12.

 

[Natha]

YES .. THIS IS TRUE..
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you
God is with His own plan ... He is doing in His way
And unless Spirit of God makes us to convict on sin, no person can come to God

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

So again you are promoting universalism BF.

Again dishonest false accusation

 

[Brightfame52]

That is your misunderstanding of the word of God through your continued cherry picking of verses and ignoring of the context of those verses that you think support your view.

You are doing just what the WOF leaders and the cu*ts do.

You are misusing the word of God to support non-biblical views.

Lol Once God intervenes because of mans inability to come to Christ Jn 6:44 His intervention saves them and they come to Christ.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes the gospel is powerful and those that hear and respond in faith will be saved. But you seem to think that only some hear it or that God only makes to powerful to some.

The reality is that even of those that hear the gospel message some will freely accept the truth and some will freely reject the truth.

Gods power causes them to believe, its like His power in saying, let there be light. Thats an effectual work. When God commanded it be light in Gen 1:3

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Could light refuse to obey Gods command ? Likewise God commands the light of the Gospel to shine into the heart of those He draws and save and they have no choice but to believe.