Tongues in the Old Testament. Understanding tongues through Biblical patterns, as the Bible teaches it.

[Dave...]

CHAPTER 9

Print that link out and keep it on file, as it does a great job in laying out the Biblical foundation for languages as a sign of God's judgment. Yes, tongues is just a sixteenth century word for languages. Why it's in modern translations, I'll never know.

There's no need for the sign anymore. It's primary purpose has went and gone. The secondary uses that were necessary to keep it Biblical went with it. One of the main reasons tongues were spoken at Pentecost pointed towards A.D 70. God's judgment on Israel. Tongues were also spoken to show by way of miracle that God's "Promise of the Father" that was owed to OT saints was being given, the NT indwelling that all Christians receive the moment Jesus places the Holy Spirit in them, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. For Jews and Gentiles alike. It also showed that God was undoing the confusion of languages that He caused way back in Babylon so that the Church could preach the Gospel to the whole world. It's a unique time in history and should not be used to form doctrines from because the circumstances are unrepeatable.

What you see and hear in modern churches is not the Biblical gift of tongues. In fact, it has more in common with Babylon. What they have done is they have taken all the rebukes by Paul in 1 Corinthians, the 'what not to do's, and read them as the 'what to do', and have in many respects, recreated the mystery religions of Paul's day.

Dave

 

[Cathode]

CHAPTER 9

Print that link out and keep it on file, as it does a great job in laying out the Biblical foundation for languages as a sign of God's judgment. Yes, tongues is just a sixteenth century word for languages. Why it's in modern translations, I'll never know.

There's no need for the sign anymore. It's primary purpose has went and gone. The secondary uses that were necessary to keep it Biblical went with it. One of the main reasons tongues were spoken at Pentecost pointed towards A.D 70. God's judgment on Israel. Tongues were also spoken to show by way of miracle that God's "Promise of the Father" that was owed to OT saints was being given, the NT indwelling that all Christians receive the moment Jesus places the Holy Spirit in them, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. For Jews and Gentiles alike. It also showed that God was undoing the confusion of languages that He caused way back in Babylon so that the Church could preach the Gospel to the whole world. It's a unique time in history and should not be used to form doctrines from because the circumstances are unrepeatable.

What you see and hear in modern churches is not the Biblical gift of tongues. In fact, it has more in common with Babylon. What they have done is they have taken all the rebukes by Paul in 1 Corinthians, the 'what not to do's, and read them as the 'what to do', and have in many respects, recreated the mystery religions of Paul's day.

Dave

“When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native tongue?” Acts 2

That’s right, the gift of tongues was not babble, it was speaking to different languages.

It is primarily a gift to preach the Gospel and minister to others.

There are common gifts we see in the scriptures and peculiar specific gifts for particular ministries.

This gift still operates today and even infused knowledge.

I know a priest who was instantly given the ability to speak fluently and understand Italian. He never learned it.

Many priests hearing confessions have heard people in completely foreign languages and the penitents perfectly understood the priests.
A priest complimented a young woman on her excellent English and she said she didn’t speak English, they had both been speaking in their own languages but hearing their own languages in return.

Priests reading souls, telling penitents the sins they haven’t confessed or have forgotten, with no earthly way of knowing the penitents sins.

The gift of bilocation, the odour of sanctity, ecstatic flight and tears are also noteworthy gifts we see throughout Church history.

 

[Dave...]

It is primarily a gift to preach the Gospel and minister to others.

Hey Cathode.

Sorry it took a while to reply.

I used to go to a Pentecostal church for a while, and I am familiar with all the stories and attempts to justify tongues for today. While it is true that we should always seek to edify the Body with the gifts, for the sign gifts, the sign was always the primary purpose. The edification part was secondary to keep the gifts Biblical while the sign was being given. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians that the purpose for tongues is for a sign, that's it's primary purpose. And we also see in Scripture that it was a sign of judgment.

Paul also said that prophesy is better, because it naturally edifies with out interpretation. "speaking before" isn't speaking of before in time, but before people. That's all it means. While Prophecy could carry the idea of new revelation, for us today, it simply means sharing what we already know.

Another problem with tongues is that it's not happening today. For all the attempts and the fantastic stories, Pentecostals and Charismatics still send their missionaries to school to learn the languages of those places that they are to evangelize as missionaries. I've heard all those same stories, even the healing stuff. It's just stories. I would not recommend chasing "signs" as Israel did, Jesus, in Scripture is always rebuking that kind of faith. The Jews want a sign, and Greeks want wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified..., Todays Pentecostal/Charismatic churches perfectly exemplify the Jews seeking after a sign, in my opinion.

I think where the Charismatic/Pentecostal church's really miss the boat is in understanding that anything good that comes from us for the Body/Church is a gift from God. The lists of gifts from the Holy Spirit in Scripture were not exhaustive. Jesus said that He is the Vine, and we are the branches, and without Him we can do nothing (nothing good is implied). God alone is good. "What do we have that we did not receive..?". The flesh cannot produce anything good by righteous standards, thus it's a gift from God. That's why we give God all the credit and praise, because He actually deserves it. That's the way that the gifts should be understood.

At a certain point in time in history, there were sign gifts. These had a point, they were for a sign. The secondary benefits were just to keep them edifying, and not causing confusion. When the primary purpose went, the secondary benefits went with them. We no longer need the sign to unbelieving Israel, because the judgment that it pointed to already happened. The healing and miracles was to confirm the message and the messenger when that new revelation, the Gospel, was being revealed.

Also, if you remember, at Babylon, they tried to storm heaven, and as Judgment, God scattered them and confused their languages. Before that there was one language. What happened at Pentecost was kind of an undoing of that judgment so that the Church could evangelize the world. At Pentecost, they knew what was happening was from God because only He could lift that road block. It was a confirmation, of sorts, of Who it was from and what was happening. At Pentecost in the example that you gave, them hearing others from other countries speak in their own language. Barrier removed, supernaturally. It's from God.

A modern example of tongues, or languages as judgment, is right here in the U.S. today. Can you see the parallels? There is no longer one language, nor is there even an attempt to preserve it. As a Christian nation, as we once claimed, one could easily take what is happening today as a nation under God's judgment, and the foreign languages taking permanent root could be considered a sign of that judgment. It's very similar. There's not magic to it.

Are you Catholic? I had heard that these things have taken up root in Catholicism.

Dave

 

[Cathode]

Hey Cathode.

Sorry it took a while to reply.

I used to go to a Pentecostal church for a while, and I am familiar with all the stories and attempts to justify tongues for today. While it is true that we should always seek to edify the Body with the gifts, for the sign gifts, the sign was always the primary purpose. The edification part was secondary to keep the gifts Biblical while the sign was being given. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians that the purpose for tongues is for a sign, that's it's primary purpose. And we also see in Scripture that it was a sign of judgment.

Paul also said that prophesy is better, because it naturally edifies with out interpretation. "speaking before" isn't speaking of before in time, but before people. That's all it means. While Prophecy could carry the idea of new revelation, for us today, it simply means sharing what we already know.

Another problem with tongues is that it's not happening today. For all the attempts and the fantastic stories, Pentecostals and Charismatics still send their missionaries to school to learn the languages of those places that they are to evangelize as missionaries. I've heard all those same stories, even the healing stuff. It's just stories. I would not recommend chasing "signs" as Israel did, Jesus, in Scripture is always rebuking that kind of faith. The Jews want a sign, and Greeks want wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified..., Todays Pentecostal/Charismatic churches perfectly exemplify the Jews seeking after a sign, in my opinion.

I think where the Charismatic/Pentecostal church's really miss the boat is in understanding that anything good that comes from us for the Body/Church is a gift from God. The lists of gifts from the Holy Spirit in Scripture were not exhaustive. Jesus said that He is the Vine, and we are the branches, and without Him we can do nothing (nothing good is implied). God alone is good. "What do we have that we did not receive..?". The flesh cannot produce anything good by righteous standards, thus it's a gift from God. That's why we give God all the credit and praise, because He actually deserves it. That's the way that the gifts should be understood.

At a certain point in time in history, there were sign gifts. These had a point, they were for a sign. The secondary benefits were just to keep them edifying, and not causing confusion. When the primary purpose went, the secondary benefits went with them. We no longer need the sign to unbelieving Israel, because the judgment that it pointed to already happened. The healing and miracles was to confirm the message and the messenger when that new revelation, the Gospel, was being revealed.

Also, if you remember, at Babylon, they tried to storm heaven, and as Judgment, God scattered them and confused their languages. Before that there was one language. What happened at Pentecost was kind of an undoing of that judgment so that the Church could evangelize the world. At Pentecost, they knew what was happening was from God because only He could lift that road block. It was a confirmation, of sorts, of Who it was from and what was happening. At Pentecost in the example that you gave, them hearing others from other countries speak in their own language. Barrier removed, supernaturally. It's from God.

A modern example of tongues, or languages as judgment, is right here in the U.S. today. Can you see the parallels? There is no longer one language, nor is there even an attempt to preserve it. As a Christian nation, as we once claimed, one could easily take what is happening today as a nation under God's judgment, and the foreign languages taking permanent root could be considered a sign of that judgment. It's very similar. There's not magic to it.

Are you Catholic? I had heard that these things have taken up root in Catholicism.

Dave

Hey Dave,

I’m Catholic, and believe the gifts have never ceased in the Church or miracles. I am witness to many and have had very powerful spiritual experiences.

The best way to activate all the gifts is to bypass self and ask Jesus to minister through you in any way He wants, like He is walking the earth again in you. And He will be.

As circumstances arise, Jesus says and does, not us anymore.

It’s no longer us anymore. Self gets in the way and must be constantly denied to let Jesus have full reign in us.

Handing over your human will each day and asking to live in God’s Holy Will, is the most important start to the day. “ Thy will be done “, in this state Jesus can act very powerfully through us, the human will which is at the heart of self, is no longer in the way.

Miracles and gifts flow naturally out from those living in The Divine Will.

You may find yourself falling back into the human will many times a day, but stop and recollect and ask again to live in The Holy Divine Will.

 

[Cathode]

A modern example of tongues, or languages as judgment, is right here in the U.S. today. Can you see the parallels? There is no longer one language, nor is there even an attempt to preserve it. As a Christian nation, as we once claimed, one could easily take what is happening today as a nation under God's judgment, and the foreign languages taking permanent root could be considered a sign of that judgment. It's very similar. There's not magic to it.

Other languages might be the least judgement. Earthquake and inundation, famine and war are how a nation is judged.

This is how the United States will be judged, and in a weakened state it will be prey to its enemies.
Militarily speaking, and geographically speaking, the United States is unassailable, but not if God allows natural disasters to weaken it first.

America has done a great deal of good in the world as well, it has long been a beacon of freedom for the whole world.