Tongues in the Old Testament. Understanding tongues through Biblical patterns, as the Bible teaches it.

[Dave...]

CHAPTER 9

Print that link out and keep it on file, as it does a great job in laying out the Biblical foundation for languages as a sign of God's judgment. Yes, tongues is just a sixteenth century word for languages. Why it's in modern translations, I'll never know.

There's no need for the sign anymore. It's primary purpose has went and gone. The secondary uses that were necessary to keep it Biblical went with it. One of the main reasons tongues were spoken at Pentecost pointed towards A.D 70. God's judgment on Israel. Tongues were also spoken to show by way of miracle that God's "Promise of the Father" that was owed to OT saints was being given, the NT indwelling that all Christians receive the moment Jesus places the Holy Spirit in them, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. For Jews and Gentiles alike. It also showed that God was undoing the confusion of languages that He caused way back in Babylon so that the Church could preach the Gospel to the whole world. It's a unique time in history and should not be used to form doctrines from because the circumstances are unrepeatable.

What you see and hear in modern churches is not the Biblical gift of tongues. In fact, it has more in common with Babylon. What they have done is they have taken all the rebukes by Paul in 1 Corinthians, the 'what not to do's, and read them as the 'what to do', and have in many respects, recreated the mystery religions of Paul's day.

Dave

 

[Cathode]

CHAPTER 9

Print that link out and keep it on file, as it does a great job in laying out the Biblical foundation for languages as a sign of God's judgment. Yes, tongues is just a sixteenth century word for languages. Why it's in modern translations, I'll never know.

There's no need for the sign anymore. It's primary purpose has went and gone. The secondary uses that were necessary to keep it Biblical went with it. One of the main reasons tongues were spoken at Pentecost pointed towards A.D 70. God's judgment on Israel. Tongues were also spoken to show by way of miracle that God's "Promise of the Father" that was owed to OT saints was being given, the NT indwelling that all Christians receive the moment Jesus places the Holy Spirit in them, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. For Jews and Gentiles alike. It also showed that God was undoing the confusion of languages that He caused way back in Babylon so that the Church could preach the Gospel to the whole world. It's a unique time in history and should not be used to form doctrines from because the circumstances are unrepeatable.

What you see and hear in modern churches is not the Biblical gift of tongues. In fact, it has more in common with Babylon. What they have done is they have taken all the rebukes by Paul in 1 Corinthians, the 'what not to do's, and read them as the 'what to do', and have in many respects, recreated the mystery religions of Paul's day.

Dave

“When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native tongue?” Acts 2

That’s right, the gift of tongues was not babble, it was speaking to different languages.

It is primarily a gift to preach the Gospel and minister to others.

There are common gifts we see in the scriptures and peculiar specific gifts for particular ministries.

This gift still operates today and even infused knowledge.

I know a priest who was instantly given the ability to speak fluently and understand Italian. He never learned it.

Many priests hearing confessions have heard people in completely foreign languages and the penitents perfectly understood the priests.
A priest complimented a young woman on her excellent English and she said she didn’t speak English, they had both been speaking in their own languages but hearing their own languages in return.

Priests reading souls, telling penitents the sins they haven’t confessed or have forgotten, with no earthly way of knowing the penitents sins.

The gift of bilocation, the odour of sanctity, ecstatic flight and tears are also noteworthy gifts we see throughout Church history.

 

[Dave...]

It is primarily a gift to preach the Gospel and minister to others.

Hey Cathode.

Sorry it took a while to reply.

I used to go to a Pentecostal church for a while, and I am familiar with all the stories and attempts to justify tongues for today. While it is true that we should always seek to edify the Body with the gifts, for the sign gifts, the sign was always the primary purpose. The edification part was secondary to keep the gifts Biblical while the sign was being given. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians that the purpose for tongues is for a sign, that's it's primary purpose. And we also see in Scripture that it was a sign of judgment.

Paul also said that prophesy is better, because it naturally edifies with out interpretation. "speaking before" isn't speaking of before in time, but before people. That's all it means. While Prophecy could carry the idea of new revelation, for us today, it simply means sharing what we already know.

Another problem with tongues is that it's not happening today. For all the attempts and the fantastic stories, Pentecostals and Charismatics still send their missionaries to school to learn the languages of those places that they are to evangelize as missionaries. I've heard all those same stories, even the healing stuff. It's just stories. I would not recommend chasing "signs" as Israel did, Jesus, in Scripture is always rebuking that kind of faith. The Jews want a sign, and Greeks want wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified..., Todays Pentecostal/Charismatic churches perfectly exemplify the Jews seeking after a sign, in my opinion.

I think where the Charismatic/Pentecostal church's really miss the boat is in understanding that anything good that comes from us for the Body/Church is a gift from God. The lists of gifts from the Holy Spirit in Scripture were not exhaustive. Jesus said that He is the Vine, and we are the branches, and without Him we can do nothing (nothing good is implied). God alone is good. "What do we have that we did not receive..?". The flesh cannot produce anything good by righteous standards, thus it's a gift from God. That's why we give God all the credit and praise, because He actually deserves it. That's the way that the gifts should be understood.

At a certain point in time in history, there were sign gifts. These had a point, they were for a sign. The secondary benefits were just to keep them edifying, and not causing confusion. When the primary purpose went, the secondary benefits went with them. We no longer need the sign to unbelieving Israel, because the judgment that it pointed to already happened. The healing and miracles was to confirm the message and the messenger when that new revelation, the Gospel, was being revealed.

Also, if you remember, at Babylon, they tried to storm heaven, and as Judgment, God scattered them and confused their languages. Before that there was one language. What happened at Pentecost was kind of an undoing of that judgment so that the Church could evangelize the world. At Pentecost, they knew what was happening was from God because only He could lift that road block. It was a confirmation, of sorts, of Who it was from and what was happening. At Pentecost in the example that you gave, them hearing others from other countries speak in their own language. Barrier removed, supernaturally. It's from God.

A modern example of tongues, or languages as judgment, is right here in the U.S. today. Can you see the parallels? There is no longer one language, nor is there even an attempt to preserve it. As a Christian nation, as we once claimed, one could easily take what is happening today as a nation under God's judgment, and the foreign languages taking permanent root could be considered a sign of that judgment. It's very similar. There's not magic to it.

Are you Catholic? I had heard that these things have taken up root in Catholicism.

Dave

 

[Cathode]

Hey Cathode.

Sorry it took a while to reply.

I used to go to a Pentecostal church for a while, and I am familiar with all the stories and attempts to justify tongues for today. While it is true that we should always seek to edify the Body with the gifts, for the sign gifts, the sign was always the primary purpose. The edification part was secondary to keep the gifts Biblical while the sign was being given. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians that the purpose for tongues is for a sign, that's it's primary purpose. And we also see in Scripture that it was a sign of judgment.

Paul also said that prophesy is better, because it naturally edifies with out interpretation. "speaking before" isn't speaking of before in time, but before people. That's all it means. While Prophecy could carry the idea of new revelation, for us today, it simply means sharing what we already know.

Another problem with tongues is that it's not happening today. For all the attempts and the fantastic stories, Pentecostals and Charismatics still send their missionaries to school to learn the languages of those places that they are to evangelize as missionaries. I've heard all those same stories, even the healing stuff. It's just stories. I would not recommend chasing "signs" as Israel did, Jesus, in Scripture is always rebuking that kind of faith. The Jews want a sign, and Greeks want wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified..., Todays Pentecostal/Charismatic churches perfectly exemplify the Jews seeking after a sign, in my opinion.

I think where the Charismatic/Pentecostal church's really miss the boat is in understanding that anything good that comes from us for the Body/Church is a gift from God. The lists of gifts from the Holy Spirit in Scripture were not exhaustive. Jesus said that He is the Vine, and we are the branches, and without Him we can do nothing (nothing good is implied). God alone is good. "What do we have that we did not receive..?". The flesh cannot produce anything good by righteous standards, thus it's a gift from God. That's why we give God all the credit and praise, because He actually deserves it. That's the way that the gifts should be understood.

At a certain point in time in history, there were sign gifts. These had a point, they were for a sign. The secondary benefits were just to keep them edifying, and not causing confusion. When the primary purpose went, the secondary benefits went with them. We no longer need the sign to unbelieving Israel, because the judgment that it pointed to already happened. The healing and miracles was to confirm the message and the messenger when that new revelation, the Gospel, was being revealed.

Also, if you remember, at Babylon, they tried to storm heaven, and as Judgment, God scattered them and confused their languages. Before that there was one language. What happened at Pentecost was kind of an undoing of that judgment so that the Church could evangelize the world. At Pentecost, they knew what was happening was from God because only He could lift that road block. It was a confirmation, of sorts, of Who it was from and what was happening. At Pentecost in the example that you gave, them hearing others from other countries speak in their own language. Barrier removed, supernaturally. It's from God.

A modern example of tongues, or languages as judgment, is right here in the U.S. today. Can you see the parallels? There is no longer one language, nor is there even an attempt to preserve it. As a Christian nation, as we once claimed, one could easily take what is happening today as a nation under God's judgment, and the foreign languages taking permanent root could be considered a sign of that judgment. It's very similar. There's not magic to it.

Are you Catholic? I had heard that these things have taken up root in Catholicism.

Dave

Hey Dave,

I’m Catholic, and believe the gifts have never ceased in the Church or miracles. I am witness to many and have had very powerful spiritual experiences.

The best way to activate all the gifts is to bypass self and ask Jesus to minister through you in any way He wants, like He is walking the earth again in you. And He will be.

As circumstances arise, Jesus says and does, not us anymore.

It’s no longer us anymore. Self gets in the way and must be constantly denied to let Jesus have full reign in us.

Handing over your human will each day and asking to live in God’s Holy Will, is the most important start to the day. “ Thy will be done “, in this state Jesus can act very powerfully through us, the human will which is at the heart of self, is no longer in the way.

Miracles and gifts flow naturally out from those living in The Divine Will.

You may find yourself falling back into the human will many times a day, but stop and recollect and ask again to live in The Holy Divine Will.

 

[Cathode]

A modern example of tongues, or languages as judgment, is right here in the U.S. today. Can you see the parallels? There is no longer one language, nor is there even an attempt to preserve it. As a Christian nation, as we once claimed, one could easily take what is happening today as a nation under God's judgment, and the foreign languages taking permanent root could be considered a sign of that judgment. It's very similar. There's not magic to it.

Other languages might be the least judgement. Earthquake and inundation, famine and war are how a nation is judged.

This is how the United States will be judged, and in a weakened state it will be prey to its enemies.
Militarily speaking, and geographically speaking, the United States is unassailable, but not if God allows natural disasters to weaken it first.

America has done a great deal of good in the world as well, it has long been a beacon of freedom for the whole world.

 

[Cathode]

Jesus said that He is the Vine, and we are the branches, and without Him we can do nothing (nothing good is implied). God alone is good. "What do we have that we did not receive..?". The flesh cannot produce anything good by righteous standards, thus it's a gift from God. That's why we give God all the credit and praise, because He actually deserves it. That's the way that the gifts should be understood.

Without Jesus we can do nothing. That’s why it is so important to deny ourselves.

And the maximum denial of self we can do, is to deny our human will and live in God’s Holy Will.

Any acts then done in The Divine Will are Divine acts not human acts. It’s Jesus doing.

In The Lords Prayer we see every disposition we must have.

Thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Jesus tells us the Kingdom is within us, and this means that God’s Will done on Earth is done first within us and then out from us.

When we Sacrifice our human will, and ask only for God’s Holy Will to Reign in us, we are sacrificing everything of ourselves to the very core without reserve.

Many believers hold back their human wills in reserve, they will give up everything except control, their volition. We all grew up living by our volition, everything we obtained in life was by force of our will and volition.
Strange things happen when we start messing with our volition, it’s at the very heart of the spiritual drama.

So, fully allowing Jesus to act and use you as He needs, opens the way to every Grace and miracle.

It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me.

 

[Dave...]

Hey Dave,

I’m Catholic, and believe the gifts have never ceased in the Church or miracles. I am witness to many and have had very powerful spiritual experiences.

Hey again Cathode.

Often times the discussions that we as Christians have surrounding the gifts are framed into an all or nothing discussion, when in reality, that's just painting extremes to make one side appear less extreme.

I think, for the most part that we agree that God is the source of the gifts, which I would define as anything good coming from us, meaning if it's good then it's from His Spirit in us, since, from the flesh we can only produce sin. Where we mainly disagree is that I believe that the sign gifts have ceased. We no longer need to confirm the Message of the Messenger, since now we have the faith once for all delivered, nor does Israel need to know that they are under God's Judgement as a nation, since that judgment fell already.

Keep in mind that when I say that the sign gifts have ceased, that doesn't mean that God no longer heals supernaturally from time to time. He just doesn't do it through human agency any longer. Everyone has the right to ask God in prayer for anything, including healing. He mostly answers prayer through providence, that being natural means, but occasionally does do it miraculously for His purposes.

In that Pentecostal church that I mentioned in my last post, they made promises to sick people that God never made. Guaranteeing them that if they had enough faith they would be healed. Then when it didn't happen, the sick person is left to assume that they didn't have enough faith. I seen people's faith and lives destroyed from that false teaching. Those in Scripture who had the gift of healing (through human agency) healed everyone all the time. Scripture says that clearly. Jesus said the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. Some of the people supernaturally healed in Scripture never even asked for it. It's a shame. These faith healers today destroy faith to make money.

1 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

1 Corinthians 14:20-22 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. In the law (OT) it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips (Foreigners) I will speak to this people (Israel); And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord. Therefore tongues (foreign languages) are for a sign (of judgment), not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. (--added by me--)

Luke 21:5-38 Jesus predicts the coming judgment on Israel. This happened in AD 70 from emperor Titus. <---Google that sentence.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

These are all listed as sign gifts. Tongues (as per Pentecost miracle), healing (everyone). Who passed this test? No one today. The Apostles and maybe some close associates, but no one today.

Mark 16: 17-20 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

This was just before Jesus ascended, and the Holy Spirit was given.

Remember the Apostles were part of the Church back then.

1 Cor. 12:28-29 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

Interesting that here in 1 Corinthians, after the transition into the New Covenant dispensation, a "variety of tongues", and "gifts of healings" are listed separately from miracles.

Dave

 

[Cathode]

Hey again Cathode.

Often times the discussions that we as Christians have surrounding the gifts are framed into an all or nothing discussion, when in reality, that's just painting extremes to make one side appear less extreme.

I think, for the most part that we agree that God is the source of the gifts, which I would define as anything good coming from us, meaning if it's good then it's from His Spirit in us, since, from the flesh we can only produce sin. Where we mainly disagree is that I believe that the sign gifts have ceased. We no longer need to confirm the Message of the Messenger, since now we have the faith once for all delivered, nor does Israel need to know that they are under God's Judgement as a nation, since that judgment fell already.

Keep in mind that when I say that the sign gifts have ceased, that doesn't mean that God no longer heals supernaturally from time to time. He just doesn't do it through human agency any longer. Everyone has the right to ask God in prayer for anything, including healing. He mostly answers prayer through providence, that being natural means, but occasionally does do it miraculously for His purposes.

In that Pentecostal church that I mentioned in my last post, they made promises to sick people that God never made. Guaranteeing them that if they had enough faith they would be healed. Then when it didn't happen, the sick person is left to assume that they didn't have enough faith. I seen people's faith and lives destroyed from that false teaching. Those in Scripture who had the gift of healing (through human agency) healed everyone all the time. Scripture says that clearly. Jesus said the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. Some of the people supernaturally healed in Scripture never even asked for it. It's a shame. These faith healers today destroy faith to make money.

1 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

1 Corinthians 14:20-22 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. In the law (OT) it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips (Foreigners) I will speak to this people (Israel); And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord. Therefore tongues (foreign languages) are for a sign (of judgment), not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. (--added by me--)

Luke 21:5-38 Jesus predicts the coming judgment on Israel. This happened in AD 70 from emperor Titus. <---Google that sentence.

Dave

The issue I have Dave, is knowing from personal experience and Church history. Healings from cancer, healings from addictions, visible help from angels, protection from physical attacks, knowledge, unbelievable providences and many other things.

Look again at the Scripture and remember what I wrote about being in The Divine Will.

“with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will”

Cessationism automatically rejects the possibility of gifts, so it is automatically in a position of anti faith, disbelief. It is self fulfilling, no faith means no miracles or gifts manifest. It doesn’t allow for it, and thus it doesn’t happen.

Real miracles and gifts have not ceased in the Catholic Church, countless millions of examples have manifested.

In that Pentecostal church that I mentioned in my last post, they made promises to sick people that God never made. Guaranteeing them that if they had enough faith they would be healed. Then when it didn't happen, the sick person is left to assume that they didn't have enough faith.

These things are always contingent on God’s Will.

“with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will”

It’s not always Faith that is lacking, it just wasn’t God’s Will.

Sometimes sickness and suffering is far more beneficial to souls, it’s a very precious commodity in the spiritual economy.

But if you want to see gifts and miracles manifest, then you must first be at least open to them, as you are open to God’s Holy Will on any matter.

If you are open to God’s Will, the gifts will manifest through you as circumstances arise and are needed through life.

The problem is too many believers still live their lives in their own human wills, which has no power. “Without me you can do nothing “
Then they have to explain why there are no gifts or miracles in their lives by reverting to cessationism. Which is a big mistake.

 

[Dave...]

The issue I have Dave, is knowing from personal experience and Church history. Healings from cancer, healings from addictions, visible help from angels, protection from physical attacks, knowledge, unbelievable providences and many other things.

Look again at the Scripture and remember what I wrote about being in The Divine Will.

“with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will”

Cessationism automatically rejects the possibility of gifts, so it is automatically in a position of anti faith, disbelief. It is self fulfilling, no faith means no miracles or gifts manifest. It doesn’t allow for it, and thus it doesn’t happen.

Real miracles and gifts have not ceased in the Catholic Church, countless millions of examples have manifested.

Hi Cathode

The Bible is Church history too. You're painting extremes again and ignoring the distinction between the God answering faithful prayer, and the true gift of healing. I'll tell you what, lets make it simple, when you walk into a hospital and heal everyone, regardless of faith, that's the gift of healing. I'll read about it in the papers. There's no point in arguing over something that's not happening. Until then...

"The Charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people that is why they are credible today." That is, because most people believe the Charismatic movement offers the promise of the same gifts described in the New Testament. "Yet," he says, "Now, when challenged by the obvious fact that their gifts don't meet Biblical standards, one of their primary defenses is to claim that their gifts are not the same as those gifts in the New Testament. Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence." (Thomas Edgar )That's a pretty devastating admission, really. But many Charismatics have had to come to grips with it and have admitted it."

As for languages, yes, we have them. Ever since God scattered the people at Babylon and confused their languages as judgment. And Pentecostals and Charismatics still send their missionaries to school to learn the languages of the people that they are missions to. I would suspect that the same is true with Catholicism, since Catholicism absorbs all teachings into it, including many false ones. They call it ecumenicism. God would not work miracles in a church that absorbs Islam and calls it's teachings a message of truth that saves. That's relativism. It's hostile to truth, thus it's hostile to Jesus.

These things are always contingent on God’s Will.

“with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will”

Here's the whole passage. Context, as explained earlier.

Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

It’s not always Faith that is lacking, it just wasn’t God’s Will.

That's not the gift of healing.

But if you want to see gifts and miracles manifest, then you must first be at least open to them, as you are open to God’s Holy Will on any matter.

If you are open to God’s Will, the gifts will manifest through you as circumstances arise and are needed through life.

The problem is too many believers still live their lives in their own human wills, which has no power. “Without me you can do nothing “
Then they have to explain why there are no gifts or miracles in their lives by reverting to cessationism. Which is a big mistake.

You're confusing two different things. I'll quote Macarthur, (your buddy, I'm sure), he's a cessationist.

"2. THE HYPOCRISY OF MODERN HEALERS

The question I hear all the time is: "Well, how do you explain what goes on?" All right, let me ask you a question. Since none of the healers can heal with a word or a touch, instantaneously, totally, everybody, organic diseases, and raise the dead; since none of them have received the gift of healing from Jesus or the Apostles; since the Bible is complete, the revelation has ceased, and more signs are no longer necessary; since the Word needs no confirmation -- it is sufficient that the man of God might be perfect; since their healings are based on faulty theology of the atonement and salvation; since they disallow God His own purposes in having some people remain sick; since their personal lives are not known to manifest the fruit of the Spirit; since so many tricks, gimmicks, and special effects are often used; since the evidence is weak, unsupported, and so-called testimonies exaggerated; since they do not go to where the sick are, as Jesus did; since they cannot heal all who come to them; and since their healings can have other possible explanations rather than that God has acted supernaturally; let me ask you this question: "How do you explain it?" You can't explain it biblically -- it is fraud, they are deceived. Maybe they don't know they are deceived; maybe they are honestly deceived, but they are deceived.

3. THE HEALING OF GOD

You say, "Are you saying God doesn't heal?" No. God answers prayer. Second, God heals in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith to manifest His own glory. Don't say I don't believe God heals. I've seen Him heal. I've seen Him heal miraculously. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory in response to faithful prayer. God heals. But, God does not heal everybody and God no longer heals through the apostolic gift of healing. That gift has ceased." Macarthur

Dave

 

[Cathode]

That's not the gift of healing.

Are you saying that someone with the gift of healing will always heal everyone, even if it is not God’s Will that certain of them should be healed?

You are misunderstanding very fundamental things here, if that’s the case. Everything is contingent on God’s Will, the gifts will not defy God’s Will.

Yes there are occasions at certain points in Scripture when all the sick presented to the disciples were healed, it doesn’t make it always a universal outcome.

Here's the whole passage. Context, as explained earlier.

Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

It doesn’t change the point I was making.

“with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will”

These things including the manifestation of the gifts happened according to God’s Will.

See how important it is not to miss or gloss over a jot of Scripture.

Sometimes suffering is essential for souls, suffering and affliction teach us to Love which is the most important thing God wants us to do.
Do you think God is more concerned about physical maladies or the spiritual maladies?

Spiritual healings are mostly remedied by physical sufferings which God has lovingly given to people, so healing them physically is counter productive spiritually.
Sufferings are a great gift of God, people really should be thanking God for them.

I’ve seen some really arrogant and nasty people totally improved after surviving a massive car accident with horrendous rehabilitation or an arduous health issue. It’s amazing how loving, kind and understanding they became, suffering wrought a miracle in their lives.

I would suspect that the same is true with Catholicism, since Catholicism absorbs all teachings into it, including many false ones. They call it ecumenicism.

Catholic teaching remains the same, you only have to look at the Catechism. However at a pastoral level, many good and bad attempts at ecumenicism have happened.

God would not work miracles in a church that absorbs Islam and calls it's teachings a message of truth that saves.

Very good point, but then you have to explain all the countless miracles in the Catholic Church.

That's relativism. It's hostile to truth, thus it's hostile to Jesus.

I think you meant to say syncretism, but that’s not the case either. Relativism is not a Catholic problem, it’s a very serious problem in Bible alone churches however, where scriptures interpretation is relative from person to person. It’s the greatest example of relativism the world has ever seen.

 

[Dave...]

Are you saying that someone with the gift of healing will always heal everyone, even if it is not God’s Will that certain of them should be healed?

You are misunderstanding very fundamental things here, if that’s the case. Everything is contingent on God’s Will, the gifts will not defy God’s Will.

Yes there are occasions at certain points in Scripture when all the sick presented to the disciples were healed, it doesn’t make it always a universal outcome.

Hey Cathode

The sign gifts had a purpose, that was God's purpose. That was all explained earlier. Yes, *all* were healed. Otherwise it would not have confirmed the message and the messenger, which is exactly what it was intended to do. The purpose was not the healing, as every single person who has ever been healed miraculously by God has eventually died. There is a physical healing in the atonement, but that is not yet realized. We are spiritually resurrected here, when we come to faith and are born again. The physical resurrection, a physical wholeness, comes later in promise.

Anyways...

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Jesus healed them all.

Acts 5:12-16 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Peter healed them all.

Acts 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Paul healed them all.

That's the biblical standard for the gift of healing.

The gift of healing was limited to Jesus, the Apostles, the seventy, and a few close associates like Phillip. It was never meant for the purpose that is wrongly being taught today. It was meant to confirm the message and the messenger.

Of the whole history of man in Scripture, miracles through human agency were performed in three brief periods of time, each being about one hundred years. You can confirm this in your Bible if you do a study about when the miracles were happening. The time of Moses and Joshua, the ministries of Elijah and Elisha, and the era of Jesus and the Apostles. With the exception of a very few miracles like Samson's, the rest of them are clustered together in three one hundred year periods.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

It doesn’t change the point I was making.

“with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will”

Cathode,

'according to His own will' at the end of that passage 'His will' is explained in The Bold.

Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was *confirmed* to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Sometimes suffering is essential for souls, suffering and affliction teach us to Love which is the most important thing God wants us to do.
Do you think God is more concerned about physical maladies or the spiritual maladies?

Spiritual healings are mostly remedied by physical sufferings which God has lovingly given to people, so healing them physically is counter productive spiritually.
Sufferings are a great gift of God, people really should be thanking God for them.

I’ve seen some really arrogant and nasty people totally improved after surviving a massive car accident with horrendous rehabilitation or an arduous health issue. It’s amazing how loving, kind and understanding they became, suffering wrought a miracle in their lives.

We should understand that these people who cried out to God, and He healed them, either miraculously or not, is not the gift of healing. It's simply God answering prayer. Everything you've said, Cathode, fits with that side of it, but the gift of healing is something different, and nobody is passing those standards today.

Catholic teaching remains the same, you only have to look at the Catechism. However at a pastoral level, many good and bad attempts at ecumenicism have happened.

Catholicism has evolved, even in teaching. They didn't always Deify Mary. They can say it's veneration, but it's not. And ecumenicism began in the Catholic church in the sixties. Remember, this is the same Catholic church that claimed you had to be Catholic to be saved. Now, Muslims are saved for being Muslim according to the Catholic Church. That relativism, and relativism teaches that everyone has their own truth, thus denying exclusive statement by Jesus that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that He is the Word. That's just a few, but there's more.

Very good point, but then you have to explain all the countless miracles in the Catholic Church.

Consider that many of these claims never happened. As MacArthur said in the quote that I gave above, the "evidence is weak, unsupported, and so-called testimonies exaggerated;"

Also consider that Satan can do lying signs and wonders. The anti Christ is prophesied to do the same. And with AI, I suppose video evidence is no longer valid, though I haven't seen anything like that offered as evidence yet. I expect a lot of it.

I think you meant to say syncretism, but that’s not the case either. Relativism is not a Catholic problem, it’s a very serious problem in Bible alone churches however, where scriptures interpretation is relative from person to person. It’s the greatest example of relativism the world has ever seen.

Ecumenicism is relativism. Either the Bible is true, or Catholicism is true, you can't have both. To unite Islam as part of Biblical truth is a falsehood.
Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth, And the Life. It's an exclusive statement. To include Islam and it's teachings as saving truth as Catholicism now does, is to deny Jesus.

Dave

 

[Cathode]

Hey Cathode

The sign gifts had a purpose, that was God's purpose. That was all explained earlier. Yes, *all* were healed. Otherwise it would not have confirmed the message and the messenger, which is exactly what it was intended to do. The purpose was not the healing, as every single person who has ever been healed miraculously by God has eventually died. There is a physical healing in the atonement, but that is not yet realized. We are spiritually resurrected here, when we come to faith and are born again. The physical resurrection, a physical wholeness, comes later in promise.

“Then Jesus, moved with compassion, stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, 'I am willing; be cleansed.'

Was Jesus solely thinking of the message here, no.

In your contractualist goal driven view, is there any room for people being healed simply because they are loved?

Was the purpose of the gifts to verify the Word? Yes.

Was the purpose of the gifts ONLY to verify the Word? No.

The gift of healing was limited to Jesus, the Apostles, the seventy, and a few close associates like Phillip. It was never meant for the purpose that is wrongly being taught today. It was meant to confirm the message and the messenger.

The message and the messengers didn’t cease with the Apostles.

Many miracles are recorded after the Apostles, many messengers came after the Apostles, and those miracles did confirm their gospel message.

There was no Bible for 400 years and the majority of people couldn’t even read for the first 1700-1800 years.
The Gospel was preached by messengers and the message was confirmed by many with gifts of healing and miracles.

European pagans were conquered by the Gospel accompanied and confirmed by many healings, miracles and wonders performed by the saints of the Church. The Apostles never did this, it was their successors that did this all throughout Europe and the Isles and beyond.

You can read these accounts of countless saints healing and miracles as they preached the Gospel message.

Did “the message” only need to be confirmed in Jesus and Apostolic times, no. The message needed to be constantly confirmed and still needs to be confirmed to the numberless millions of ignorant today.

And besides, I am witness to these miracles and healings myself after witnessing to people with the message.

 

[Cathode]

'according to His own will' at the end of that passage 'His will' is explained in The Bold.

Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was *confirmed* to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

I emphasised according to His own will, because you weren’t seeing it.
And it doesn’t change the context emphasising other words of the passage, and still aren’t seeing it, those words give the context.

We should understand that these people who cried out to God, and He healed them, either miraculously or not, is not the gift of healing. It's simply God answering prayer. Everything you've said, Cathode, fits with that side of it, but the gift of healing is something different, and nobody is passing those standards today.

Dave, listen to me. I laid hands on a biker dying of end stage lung cancer and he was healed, he said he felt the power at that moment. His next scan was completely clear, nothing there. He believes in Jesus now, and he wasn’t crying out to God, he was cynical, he only let me lay hands on him because there was “nothing to lose”.

I laid hands on a drug addict and I saw him a year or so later but didn’t recognise him because he had totally changed, gained weight and health back. He said from that moment he felt like his addiction was healed and everything changed. He still went to rehab the next day but he said it was easy, he then got a high paying job in the mines with his father and sorted his life out. He had been looking for me and Nell on the streets at night for a long time to tell us.

Catholicism has evolved, even in teaching. They didn't always Deify Mary. They can say it's veneration, but it's not.

If you read our Catechism, something Catholics are bound to believe, you can see we never believed Mary is God, she is a creature as it and scripture clearly states.

Consider that many of these claims never happened. As MacArthur said in the quote that I gave above, the "evidence is weak, unsupported, and so-called testimonies exaggerated;"

You put a lot of stock into this MacArthur fellow. Would you call him a totally fair and unbiased testimonial?

A cessationist not only has to first explain the lack of gifts and miracles in his own tradition, he has to deride traditions that do claim to have gifts and miracles. Gifts and Miracles in the Catholic Church, would invalidate his beliefs and tradition completely.

Also consider that Satan can do lying signs and wonders. The anti Christ is prophesied to do the same. And with AI, I suppose video evidence is no longer valid, though I haven't seen anything like that offered as evidence yet. I expect a lot of it.

So Satan can still do his lying signs and wonders, but God cannot do use His gifts through the saints of the Church.

Ecumenicism is relativism. Either the Bible is true, or Catholicism is true, you can't have both. To unite Islam as part of Biblical truth is a falsehood.
Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth, And the Life. It's an exclusive statement. To include Islam and it's teachings as saving truth as Catholicism now does, is to deny Jesus.

I don’t see Islamic teaching in the Catholic Catechism.

It was the Catholic Church that first Canonised the Bible back in 385 ad. The Bible is the Catholic Church’s book. Look up the decree of Pope Damasus, see where the Bible came from.
Look at the Catholic Councils that determined the Canon, look at the Catholic Fathers that preserved the scriptures from the Apostles.

“ Without the Catholic Church, we would have no Bible “ Professor Peter Flint, Baptist translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Smart, honest guy, RIP.

 

[Cathode]

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“Therefore, just as God did not inflict His anger on account of those seven thousand men, even so He has now neither yet inflicted judgment, nor does inflict it, knowing that daily some [of you] are becoming disciples in the name of Christ, and quitting the path of error; who are also receiving gifts, each as he is worthy, illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God” (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39). 150 Ad


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“Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practicing deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others]” (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 4).


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“when by faith we stand inside the Gospel; when healings and miracles are performed; when by prophecy we are taught of God; when spirits, holy or evil, are discerned, when sermons in foreign languages are signs that the Holy Spirit is active; when interpretation makes intelligible the sermons in foreign languages. In all these gifts the presence of the Spirit is manifested in concrete effects. . . . We are inundated with the gifts of the Spirit.”

 

[Dave...]

“Then Jesus, moved with compassion, stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, 'I am willing; be cleansed.'

Was Jesus solely thinking of the message here, no.

In your contractualist goal driven view, is there any room for people being healed simply because they are loved?

Was the purpose of the gifts to verify the Word? Yes.

Was the purpose of the gifts ONLY to verify the Word? No.

Hi Cathode

The sign gifts had a specific purpose. You are continually muddying the waters between the sign gifts and the gifts all together. This is causing confusion for you. You must in your mind separate the two to understand what I'm saying.

The message and the messengers didn’t cease with the Apostles.

We are not adding to the NT. That's what was being confirmed by the miracles. What was being confirmed was the new revelation and those bringing it. The miracles were not verifying the continual preaching the message that was already given, or the messenger that brought it. .

Dave

 

[Dave...]

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“Therefore, just as God did not inflict His anger on account of those seven thousand men, even so He has now neither yet inflicted judgment, nor does inflict it, knowing that daily some [of you] are becoming disciples in the name of Christ, and quitting the path of error; who are also receiving gifts, each as he is worthy, illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God” (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39). 150 Ad

Cathode

You're assuming miraculous into that statement. Not that it has any authority, as it is not the word of God, but tradition. in 1 Corinthians, healing is listed as gifts of healings, and were practical, as they were listed separate from miracles. A doctor who cured specific illnesses, is a gift. A doctor who dealt with teeth, with birth, etc. were all considered gifts from God.

1 Cor. 12:28-29 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

Irenaeus 180 Ad

“Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practicing deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others]” (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 4).


Hilary 300-368 Ad

“when by faith we stand inside the Gospel; when healings and miracles are performed; when by prophecy we are taught of God; when spirits, holy or evil, are discerned, when sermons in foreign languages are signs that the Holy Spirit is active; when interpretation makes intelligible the sermons in foreign languages. In all these gifts the presence of the Spirit is manifested in concrete effects. . . . We are inundated with the gifts of the Spirit.”

Sorry, but I hold the Bible over tradition. Especially Catholic tradition, which has a history that doesn't help convince me otherwise.

 

[Cathode]

Hi Cathode

The sign gifts had a specific purpose. You are continually muddying the waters between the sign gifts and the gifts all together. This is causing confusion for you. You must in your mind separate the two to understand what I'm saying.

Did you even read the accounts of the gifts by the post Apostolic Early Christians? They are listing the gifts that are mentioned in Scripture.

How many hundreds more would you like me to quote on these gifts throughout Christian history.

This seems to be the problem, you haven’t actually studied Church history.

I can quote hundreds throughout Church history.

Ok, you will refuse to believe them because it’s a Catholic quoting them, but do your own research if you don’t believe me.

We are not adding to the NT. That's what was being confirmed by the miracles. What was being confirmed was the new revelation and those bringing it..

The Gospel is always new Revelation to those who haven’t heard it.

The Church Fathers all testify to the Scriptural gifts listed being used in their day.

Healings, prophecy, miracles, knowledge, resurrections.

Martin of Tours, Gregory the wonder worker, Benedict, Francis of Assisi, Francis of Paola, Padre Pio in our modern day. Thousands more, literally.

Read the lives of the saints of the past, look at the gifts they had, it’s been continuous from the Apostles.

The miracles were not verifying the continual preaching the message that was already given, or the messenger that brought it.

That doesn’t make any sense Dave.

So only the pagans of the first century got the benefit of the verifying gifts for the Gospel?

Sorry mate, that’s a garbage argument, to be blunt. Which is not supported by Church history. There is countless testimonies of Christians in every century of Christianity showing the Scriptural gifts being used in their times.

 

[Cathode]

Cathode

You're assuming miraculous into that statement. Not that it has any authority, as it is not the word of God, but tradition. in 1 Corinthians, healing is listed as gifts of healings, and were practical, as they were listed separate from miracles. A doctor who cured specific illnesses, is a gift. A doctor who dealt with teeth, with birth, etc. were all considered gifts from God.

1 Cor. 12:28-29 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?




Sorry, but I hold the Bible over tradition. Especially Catholic tradition, which has a history that doesn't help convince me otherwise.

You hold to Protestant and Baptist traditions, which don’t have a history going back to the Apostles.
These are all human interpretations of scripture with human founders in disagreement with each other, that had nothing to do with the Bible or the preservation and canonisation of the Bible.

You follow traditions of men.

This is relativism. In bible alonism scripture means what each man thinks it means, subjective human opinion is supreme.

Catholics have the singular objective Apostolic interpretation of Scripture, but Bible alonism has every conflicting subjective interpretation of scripture under the sun.
Don’t tell me you hold bible over tradition.