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Predestination is a Beautiful Doctrine.

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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
I see nothing beautiful in a doctrine that teaches God gathering a select group and leaving the rest in their sinful condition without reaching out to them.

In fact, it's down right ugly!
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Here's the God I know and serve, and He's very much misunderstood by a certain group.

Isaiah 1:18-20

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

Ezekiel 33:11

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
 
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cjab

Member
Brightfame52 said:
Predestination and Election is twofold, one decree, some elected to salvation by grace, that's election of grace, and the rest elected to hardening and blindness, the reprobate Rom 11:5-7

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
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This is hardly to the point of what I was talking about.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
cjab said:
This is hardly to the point of what I was talking about.
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You seemed to indicate that all men receive grace from God, maybe at different measures, my point is that the non elect receive no Grace at all in the matters of salvation. God hasn't revealed Himself to all mankind that way. His revelation in creation doesnt count, that's not an redemptive revelation at all, Jesus must give special gracious revelation Matt 11:25-27

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
JesusFan said:
That is why you can thank God for His sovereign grace and mercies, for if you or I were not saved by Him, we would still be lost and hell bound, and would not even be worrying about it
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But God is worried about it, the reason for so much striving with His chosen people all through the OT.

Down through the centuries almost all of Israel died apart from God, though He strived long with them, as the Scripture says.

He cried out to them in mercy, "for why will you die (spiritual death in unbelief) O house of Israel."

It may seem wrong to you as your doctrine seems wrong to me, but God brought me the Gospel of His Christ and believed Him of my own free will.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
But God is worried about it, the reason for so much striving with His chosen people all through the OT.

Down through the centuries almost all of Israel died apart from God, though He strived long with them, as the Scripture says.

He cried out to them in mercy, "for why will you die (spiritual death in unbelief) O house of Israel."

It may seem wrong to you as your doctrine seems wrong to me, but God brought me the Gospel of His Christ and believed Him of my own free will.
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He had enabled you by act of sovereign grace to be able to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior thru saving faith
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Zaatar71 said:
Yes, The biblical view, you find ugly! Makes it hard to worship God that way.
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It cannot be the biblical view as it was not the teaching of the apostles but was brought into the church by augustine in the 4th century.

Please do some research on the foundations of your view.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
He cried out to them in mercy, "for why will you die (spiritual death in unbelief) O house of Israel."
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Thats not spiritual death, but national death as they eventually did die. It has nothing to do with salvation through the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Most of the nation spiritually was spiritually dead in the first place, except a small remnant.
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
JesusFan said:
He had enabled you by act of sovereign grace to be able to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior thru saving faith
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I don't want to argue, JF. I may have even believed that had I not seen the sign posts along the way waving the red flags.

There are so many contradicting verse in Scripture plus a totally different way of interpreting those predestination verses that are in theme with the sign posts.
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Thats not spiritual death, but national death as they eventually did die. It has nothing to do with salvation through the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Most of the nation spiritually was spiritually dead in the first place, except a small remnant.
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Please, BF, I'm not up for such nonsense at the present time.
 
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