The Biblical Propitiation Of God's Wrath, and PSA.

[JonC]

That...

I'll need to see where the Lord said that.
That He was always going to be responsible for the penalty incurred by the sins of God's elect.
Not just the sins, but the penalty for them.

Since "Penal Substitutionary Atonement" consists of God's supposed wrath also being laid upon the Lord Jesus on the cross, then I want to see where the Scriptures absolutely declare this.
Otherwise, my friend, to me it's based upon inference... and not clear-cut declaration.

Also:
If it were so important, I would think Paul would have written about it to the churches and told them that God's wrath was also laid upon His Son on the cross for them.

That brings up another point.

Why do we twist truths into different forms?

What is wrong with the wages of sin, or simply that sin produces death, to refer to the consequences produced by sin and God's judgment against the wicked for the "day of wrath:?

What I mean to point out is sin producing death is a consequence, not a penalty.
And God's Judgment against the wicked is nit exactly for sins (it is because they reject the Light, which they do because their deeds are evil).

The reason I ask is saying "the penalty for sins" seems to minimize that "the Father judges no one" and "all judgment has been given to the Son". It seems to minimize Christ, at least in how I am reading the wording.

Maybe it would be simpler (at least more plain, less baggage) to just call things what God called them. That way anybody can easily reference the passages without having to decode the theology used. It also forces people to go to Scrioture and perhaps to avoid talking past one another.

 

[Dave G]

What is wrong with the wages of sin, or simply that sin produces death, tio refer to the consequences produced by sin and God's judgment against the wicked for the "day of wrath:?

You'd have to ask the theologians.
I just read His word and what I understand of the Scriptures is what you see when I post on this forum.

And God's Judgment against the wicked is nit exactly for sins (it is because they reject the Light, which they do because their deeds are evil).

" Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his deeds:" ( Romans 2:1-6 ).

Granted, the above is in the AV ( which I've grown used to reading for the past 47 years ), but with a bit of work, it should be readable...

The Lord will judge every man according to their deeds ( sins ).

 

[JonC]

You'd have to ask the theologians.
I just read His word and what I understand of the Scriptures is what you see when I post on this forum.

" Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his deeds:" ( Romans 2:1-6 ).

Granted, the above is in the AV ( which I've grown used to reading for the past 47 years ), but with a bit of work, it should be readable...

The Lord will judge every man according to their deeds ( sins ).

A couple of points -

First, what I provided was Scripture -

For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Second...every man will be accountable for their deeds. Peter tells us this applies to Christians as well.

Are you saying that God will punish Christians for their sins (deeds)?

The miscommunication would be resolved by simply relying on God's Word (using the words in Scripture).

There will still be room for disagreement (I used Scrioture and you objected, for example).

 

[Dave G]

First, what I provided was Scripture -

For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Second...every man will be accountable for their deeds. Peter tells us this applies to Christians as well.

What I provided was also Scripture, Jon.

Everyone outside of Christ will answer for their sins...
To Jesus Christ, their Judge.

Didn't you know that?

Are you saying that God will punish Christians for their sins (deeds)?

Not one single saved person will ever answer for their sins.
The Lord Jesus already did that at the cross.

 

[Dave G]

The miscommunication would be resolved by simply relying on God's Word (using the words in Scripture).

I did and I do.

There will still be room for disagreement (I used Scrioture and you objected, for example).

Put together the pieces, Jon.
If all who are in Christ have their sins paid for and will never have to answer for them, what do the rest answer for?

What Christ did not pay for...
Their sins ( works ):

" And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." ( Revelation 20:13-15 ). <--- By context, this whole passage pertains to all who do not experience the first resurrection ( those in Christ ). Those that are part of the second resurrection, are those who are raised again to take part in the Judgement...of which Christians shall also be a part of, but will not face condemnation.

Good evening to you sir.

 

[JonC]

@Dave G

I agree with the verses you provided. That is what I was getting at - going to Scripture.

Now we can look at God's Word.

1. Sin produces death, the wages of sin is death.
2. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.
3. The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son.
4. The condemnation is the Light has come and they rejected the Light
5. The Father will judge believers by their deeds.
6. Every mam will be judged by their deeds.
7. God will hold Christians accountable for their words and deeds.


That is a good starting point.

You say that "deeds" mean "sins". I agree it can, but since in Peter we read that we (Christians) are to conduct ourselves in fear knowing that the Father will judge our deeds I do not think it necessarily only means "sins".

I interpret "all judgment being given to the Son" as a Christ-centeted judgment (the condemnation is they rejected the Light").

I do not know how rewards snd punishments are bestowed. I do know that there will be rewards, that we set uo treasures in heaven, that some who are saved will be better off than others who are saved (some escape obly with their lives, as one who escapes a fire).

I do not know how some of the wicked experience a worse fate than others.

But those passages are there, so I believe it. I understand it, I just do not know how it will look.


Are you denying that the Father will judge our works, and therefore we should conduct ourselves with fear (however you interpret "fear")?

I ask because there are several passages to Christians telling us that our words and deeds will be judged and cautioning us to be mindful of our conduct. But it seems that you may be dismissing those passages as you speak of God judging the deeds of the wicked but have not mentioned God judging the deeds of the saved.

 

[Brightfame52]

That...

I'll need to see where the Lord said that.

Thats because Christ was made a surety for their sins in the everlasting or new covenant Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

When Jesus came in the flesh it was to pay a obligation, the sin debt Gods people owed Heb 2:17

7 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The word behoved is the greek word opheilō:

1. o owe
   1. to owe money, be in debt for
      1. that which is due, the debt
2. metaph. the goodwill due

He came indebted to Gods Justice for the sins of the people, the elect or Sheep, seed of Abraham

I believe He had this debt before the foundation, so it was never the debt the elect would be required to pay. Thats my reason.

 

[JonC]

Thats because Christ was made a surety for their sins in the everlasting or new covenant Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

When Jesus came in the flesh it was to pay a obligation, the sin debt Gods people owed Heb 2:17

7 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The word behoved is the greek word opheilō:

1. o owe
   1. to owe money, be in debt for
      1. that which is due, the debt
2. metaph. the goodwill due

He came indebted to Gods Justice for the sins of the people, the elect or Sheep, seed of Abraham

I believe He had this debt before the foundation, so it was never the debt the elect would be required to pay. Thats my reason.

ὤφειλεν means to be obligated, and if related to finances it is a final obligation (a debt)
You are reading out of context. The way to translate the passage is not to lift words and apply them however you like. The second part of the verse telks you the obligation.

This is the problem when people start with a theory and then just wander through the Bible looking to lift words to cram in your theory so it will be "biblical".

This is why you read "Jesus is the Propitiation for our sins" as "Jesus took upon Himself the wrath due the sins of the elect".

This is why you cannot discern that Jesus was obligated to be made like unto His breathern that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Now, if the verse said "that He might pay the money Hos people owed", or "pay the debt of sin owed by His people" then you would have a point.

But, as it is, you are changing Scripture to fit your theory.

 

[Dave G]

You say that "deeds" mean "sins". I agree it can, but since in Peter we read that we (Christians) are to conduct ourselves in fear knowing that the Father will judge our deeds I do not think it necessarily only means "sins".

I understand it like this:
Since believers are forgiven of sins, then we will not be held accountable for anything that displeases the Lord.
Only our good deeds will be judged on that day.

Since unbelievers are not forgiven, then they will be held accountable for every idle word, and every time they did something that displeased Him.
Only their bad deeds will be judged on that day, as to Him, there are no deeds "good enough" to be anything other than filthy rags in His sight.

The Passover is a picture of this...
The angel of death passed over those who had the blood on the doorposts, while pronouncing death upon the houses that did not.

It's the same with believers...
Whoever belongs to Christ will be passed over in the judgement in regards to bad works, and that judgement will come to rest upon those who are not His.
He will divide those who stand before Him on Judgement day into two distinct groups:

His "sheep" on His right hand, and the "goats" on the left ( Matthew 25:31-46 ).
The "sheep" will be judged for their good deeds, while the "goats" will be judged for their bad ones.

 

[Dave G]

Are you denying that the Father will judge our works, and therefore we should conduct ourselves with fear (however you interpret "fear")?

As blood-bought children of God, we should walk worthy of our calling and election.
We should live our lives in the flesh knowing that He loves us and gave His Son for us...

At the same time, reverent "fear" ( godly respect ) for His power and for His mercy and grace should always be before our "eyes" as we live this life.

I ask because there are several passages to Christians telling us that our words and deeds will be judged and cautioning us to be mindful of our conduct. But it seems that you may be dismissing those passages as you speak of God judging the deeds of the wicked but have not mentioned God judging the deeds of the saved.

I'm not dismissing anything, Jon.
What I'm saying is that while we are to have full confidence in the Lord and His love for us, I'm also saying that we should be mindful of where we stand ( in God's favor ), scarcely there but for His grace and mercy.

There's a thin line between God's people and the Lake of Fire...
A razor thin edge between those He loves and those He is going to hold accountable for their sins.
At the same time there is a very large "gulf" between Christians and those who are not;

Again, His grace and mercy, plus the new birth...
Which makes all the difference in the world.

 

[Dave G]

Thats because Christ was made a surety for their sins in the everlasting or new covenant Heb 7:22

In my eyes, "surety" doesn't equal God's wrath being placed upon Him, BF.
It means that Jesus had our sins placed upon Him.

When Jesus came in the flesh it was to pay a obligation, the sin debt Gods people owed Heb 2:17

Agreed.

He came indebted to Gods Justice for the sins of the people, the elect or Sheep, seed of Abraham

I believe He had this debt before the foundation, so it was never the debt the elect would be required to pay. Thats my reason.

I understand the reasoning behind it.
What I disagree with is not the "spirit" of the theory of PSA, but the "letter" of it.
However, it seems I'm still not getting the answer I'm looking for;

Scripture that clearly states that God the Father's wrath was placed upon His Son, in addition to the sins of His elect.

As I see it, if this cannot be provided then to me it's still someone's theory...
No matter how many people agree with it, and no matter how many well-regarded men have declared it or been persuaded of it over the years.

No disrespect intended.

 

[Brightfame52]

ὤφειλεν means to be obligated, and if related to finances it is a final obligation (a debt)
You are reading out of context. The way to translate the passage is not to lift words and apply them however you like. The second part of the verse telks you the obligation.

This is the problem when people start with a theory and then just wander through the Bible looking to lift words to cram in your theory so it will be "biblical".

This is why you read "Jesus is the Propitiation for our sins" as "Jesus took upon Himself the wrath due the sins of the elect".

This is why you cannot discern that Jesus was obligated to be made like unto His breathern that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Now, if the verse said "that He might pay the money Hos people owed", or "pay the debt of sin owed by His people" then you would have a point.

But, as it is, you are changing Scripture to fit your theory.

I believe you just resisting truth

 

[Brightfame52]

In my eyes, "surety" doesn't equal God's wrath being placed upon Him, BF.
It means that Jesus had our sins placed upon Him.

Agreed.

I understand the reasoning behind it.
What I disagree with is not the "spirit" of the theory of PSA, but the "letter" of it.
However, it seems I'm still not getting the answer I'm looking for;

Scripture that clearly states that God the Father's wrath was placed upon His Son, in addition to the sins of His elect.

As I see it, if this cannot be provided then to me it's still someone's theory...
No matter how many people agree with it, and no matter how many well-regarded men have declared it or been persuaded of it over the years.

No disrespect intended.

Dave seems like you really don't understand my view. Do you believe Christ died as a substitute in the place of His people?

 

[Dave G]

I believe you just resisting truth

Respectfully ( and I realize you're directing this at JonC, but ),
I believe that Scripture that clearly declares it has not been shown so far, BF.
What has been shown still leaves a gap, as I see it...

A gap that must be filled with the Lord outright declaring something.
For example, show me anything that the Lord had Paul write to the churches about God's wrath being laid upon His Son, and I'll seriously take a hard look at it.
Until then, to me it's a theory derived from a very few passages that appear to show it to some people.

But they do not to me.

Dave seems like you really don't understand my view.

I do understand the view, BF, and at one time ( as little as 2 years ago ) I agreed with it.
I just don't happen to agree with it anymore.

 

[Dave G]

Do you believe Christ died as a substitute in the place of His people?

No.
I believe He died for my sins and their sins.

He did not "take my place" on the cross, neither did He suffer the wrath that would have been directed at me should the Lord not have written my name in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world.
In order to do that, the Lord Jesus would be in Hell right now, and the Lake of Fire after that...

For all eternity.

That is the wrath we are talking about, BF...
Not a "momentary wrath", but eternal punishment and torment for offending God's holiness exacted in righteous judgement and according to His perfect justice.
That would have been my punishment were I not one of the ones that He was given to by the Father to save;
and it would have been His to bear, should He have stood in as my penal substitute.

Instead, He sits at the right hand of God the Father, making intercession for me and others like me.

 

[Brightfame52]

Respectfully ( and I realize you're directing this at JonC, but ),
I believe that Scripture that clearly declares it has not been shown so far, BF.
What has been shown still leaves a gap, as I see it...

A gap that must be filled with the Lord outright declaring something.
For example, show me anything that the Lord had Paul write to the churches about God's wrath being laid upon His Son, and I'll seriously take a hard look at it.
Until then, to me it's a theory derived from a very few passages that appear to show it to some people.

But they do not to me.

I do understand the view, BF, and at one time ( as little as 2 years ago ) I agreed with it.
I just don't happen to agree with it anymore.

It's been shown it's just not understood

 

[Brightfame52]

No.
I believe He died for my sins and their sins.

He did not "take my place" on the cross, neither did He suffer the wrath that would have been directed at me should the Lord not have written my name in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world.
In order to do that, the Lord Jesus would be in Hell right now, and the Lake of Fire after that...

For all eternity.

That is the wrath we are talking about, BF...
Not a "momentary wrath", but eternal punishment and torment for offending God's holiness exacted in righteous judgement and according to His perfect justice.
That would have been my punishment were I not one of the ones that He was given to by the Father to save;
and it would have been His to bear, should He have stood in as my penal substitute.

Instead, He sits at the right hand of God the Father, making intercession for me and others like me.

Yeah after discussing these things with you you're not as sound as I thought you were

 

[Dave G]

It's been shown it's just not understood

It's understood by me perfectly.
I have no trouble seeing both the Scriptures used in support of PSA, and what those who have written about it for some years are putting forth.

For now, I reserve the right to disagree with it until such time as the Lord shows me otherwise.

Yeah after discussing these things with you you're not as sound as I thought you were

That is your privilege to determine, sir;
And it is equally your privilege to withhold from me your right hand in fellowship.

While it saddens me, it is the kind of situation that I've had to deal with for quite some time now.
One might even say that I've almost become used to the pain of it.


I wish you well, and may the Lord bless you.

 

[Brightfame52]

That is your privilege to determine, sir;

I'm not questioning your salvation by any means, however you seem mislead on some things big time, like the substitutionary death of Christ for His People.

 

[Salty]

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