The Biblical Propitiation Of God's Wrath, and PSA.

[JonC]

Do you believe the unredeemed by Christ will undergo and suffer wrath from God for their sins ? Like Eph 5 3-6

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Those He died for have been delivered from wrath

1 Thess 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

How did Jesus deliver us from the wrath to come ?

Yes, I believe those who remain lost will suffer the wrath to come.

I believe that Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come by His obedience. "In Him we escape the wrath to come". Jesus died under the powers of sin and death ("sin produces death"). But Jesus did not sin and was obedient even unto death. God raised Jesus, have Him a name above every name.

It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. I believe that Jesus died and was judged righteous.

We escape the wrath to come by being "transformed into the image of Christ", being "born of the Spirit", "made alive in Christ", "made a new creation".

Jesus "became a lufe giving Spirit", we share in His death (death to the flesh) and will share in His resurrection (His life).

 

[Dave G]

I can nit find in thGod's Word any passage saying that Jesus experienced God's wrath.
I cannot find any passage stating that God abandoned Jesus when He hung on the Criss.
I cannot find any passage that states Jesus died for our sins instead of us.
I cannot find any passage that states God transferred our sins from us and put them on Jesus.
I cannot find any passage that states that God punished the righteous.

Any one of those are enough to reject Penal Substitution Theory.

Agreed, except for the one I've highlighted.
That one I see clearly:

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."( Isaiah 53:6 ).

" who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." ( 1 Peter 2:24 )

" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." ( Hebrews 9:27-28 )

" He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." ( Isaiah 53:11 ).


Each and every sin that we are guilty of, He bore in His body on the tree.
"Transferred" vs "bare" or "took on" / "took upon Himself"?

It's the same meaning to me.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF, I realize that you were addressing JonC here, but I'd like to throw in if I'm allowed to.

Answer:
By making propitiation for the sins that those who are not God's elect, will suffer His wrath for.
My friend, God being provoked to anger is what makes Him willing to show wrath.
But since He loved each and every one of His elect while they were still enemies in their hearts and in their minds, then there was no wrath to appease.

Are those who support this teaching absolutely sure that PSA isn't coming from somewhere else besides the Scriptures?

The Lord Jesus didn't "stand in our place" or "take our punishment" on the cross;
He took upon Himself our sins, so that no one of God's elect would ever have to face His wrath and eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire.
Just as salvation is not a "potential", but a sure thing, so was God's love for His people from before the foundation of the world.
It was a done deal way before you or I ever existed.

So how could God ever be angry about something that He was always going to graciously cast behind Him as far as east is from west, because of His grace and mercy towards us?

I'll need to see Scripture that declares that God was ever angry with His own spiritual people, before I even begin to agree.

So God was not angry at the sins of the elect? Now I do believe the elect were never under God's wrath or condemnation you should know that from Reading me over the years however He is angry with sin even the sins of the elect. It's kind of a simple concept to me if the non-elect will experience God's wrath because of their sins see Ephesians chapter 5:6 , the elect would be in the same boat if Christ had not died for their sins.

Furthermore I believe you are in error saying the Lord Jesus didn't stand in our place or take our punishment on the cross, how do you understand Isaiah 53: 5,10

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, I believe those who remain lost will suffer the wrath to come.

I believe that Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come by His obedience. "In Him we escape the wrath to come". Jesus died under the powers of sin and death ("sin produces death"). But Jesus did not sin and was obedient even unto death. God raised Jesus, have Him a name above every name.

It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. I believe that Jesus died and was judged righteous.

We escape the wrath to come by being "transformed into the image of Christ", being "born of the Spirit", "made alive in Christ", "made a new creation".

Jesus "became a lufe giving Spirit", we share in His death (death to the flesh) and will share in His resurrection (His life).

You know why they remain lost? Because Christ did not die for their sins!

 

[JonC]

Agreed, except for the one I've highlighted.
That one I see clearly:

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."( Isaiah 53:6 ).

" who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." ( 1 Peter 2:24 )

" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." ( Hebrews 9:27-28 )

" He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." ( Isaiah 53:11 ).


Each and every sin that we are guilty of, He bore in His body on the tree.
"Transferred" vs "bare" or "took on" / "took upon Himself"?

It's the same meaning to me.

Here is what I was talking about before - interpretation vs addition.

What you do is interpret the text. I do as well. Since we both have the passage in common we can discuss our differences in interoretation and perhaps understand one another even if we disagree.


I interpret the verse to mean that God laid our sins on Jesus (without removing them from us).

There are several reasons I believe this, and I will try to quickly hit the main ones.

The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23), for sin produces death (James 1:15). Death spread to all because all have sinned (Romans 5:12). It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. (Heb 9:27). I believe that God became man (truely man) like us but without sin (Heb 4:15). He bore our sins bodily on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).

I believe this speaks of Jesus becoming one of us, suffering under the b9ndage of sin and death, but that this is the bondage we suffered under for our sins. He became like us (suffering under our sins, with us)so that we would become like Him (glorified with His glory, with Him).

I am interested in how you arrive at your position, if you want to discuss your view.

 

[JonC]

Agreed, except for the one I've highlighted.
That one I see clearly:

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."( Isaiah 53:6 ).

" who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." ( 1 Peter 2:24 )

" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." ( Hebrews 9:27-28 )

" He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." ( Isaiah 53:11 ).


Each and every sin that we are guilty of, He bore in His body on the tree.
"Transferred" vs "bare" or "took on" / "took upon Himself"?

It's the same meaning to me.

Here is what I was talking about before - interpretation vs addition.

What you do is interpret the text. I do as well. Since we both have the passage in common we can discuss our differences in interoretation and perhaps understand one another even if we disagree.


I interpret the verse to mean that God laid our sins on Jesus (without removing them from us).

There are several reasons I believe this, and I will try to quickly hit the main ones.

The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23), for sin produces death (James 1:15). Death spread to all because all have sinned (Romans 5:12). It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. (Heb 9:27). I believe that God became man (truely man) like us but without sin (Heb 4:15). He bore our sins bodily on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).

I believe this speaks of Jesus becoming one of us, suffering under the b9ndage of sin and death, but that this is the bondage we suffered under for our sins. He became like us (suffering under our sins, with us)so that we would become like Him (glorified with His glory, with Him).

I am interested in how you arrive at your position, if you want to discuss your view.

 

[JonC]

You know why they remain lost? Because Christ did not die for their sins!

I kniw they remain lost because they reject the Light for their deeds are evil (John 3:19).

What verse are you referencing?