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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill ! 3

cjab

Active Member
I dont, i can care less about your reason
"Free will" / "will" does not appear in Jn 6:44, or Jn 6:65. It is thus easy to draw wrong conclusions about the role of the human will from these passages.

This is your first fallacy: to make out that God's enabling overrides the will of man, but consider the converse. In the biblical record of Pharaoh's hardening his heart against God & Moses, sometimes it is said that God does it, sometimes it is said that Pharaoh does it. So in that case, God's "enabling" never supervened Pharaoh exercising "his" own will, which wasn't "free" in biblical terms as constrained by sin, yet it was still "his" own will, as scripture itself concedes.

So, God's grace doesn't vitiate human will, albeit human will cannot escape God's purposes in its decisions.

As to "free will", the Calvinist confounds the terminology. There is human will, and there is "free will," which has no true biblical application except to the saved, per John 8:36. However, even those with a measure of "free will" may forfeit both grace and grace's freedom by apostasy. One who rejects the gospel is either rejecting God's drawing (or calling Matt 22:14), or is already past the point of no return, as Pharaoh was, as affirmed by Stephen in Acts 7:51 of the very Jews to whom Christ spoke.

This leads on to the fallacy of "irresistable" grace versus the human will. Per Acts 7:51, anyone who denies that grace can be resisted is repudiating what is self-evident.
 
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cjab

Active Member
Yeah but cant or cannot does, which terms squash the idea of man having the freewill ability to believe in Jesus, that's the point.
Yes, but as I have already pointed out to you, not being able to exercise "free will" today, in respect of Christ, doesn't infer that yesterday (i.e. before you committed your prior act(s) of apostasy from (a) Moses and / or (b) Christ) that you were then unable to accept God's grace.

You're looking at the Jesus's words in the wrong sense, as I said. The immediate context is Jesus speaking to apostates from the law of Moses.

Please note that freedom of choice for the Israel came in Deut 30, when the Israelites were about to enter the promised land. Only after they committed apostasy from Moses was their Deut 30 free will taken away.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Yes, but as I have already pointed out to you, not being able to exercise "free will" today, in respect of Christ, doesn't infer that yesterday (i.e. before you committed your prior act(s) of apostasy from (a) Moses and / or (b) Christ) that you were then unable to accept God's grace.

You're looking at the Jesus's words in the wrong sense, as I said. The immediate context is Jesus speaking to apostates from the law of Moses.

Please note that freedom of choice for the Israel came in Deut 30, when the Israelites were about to enter the promised land. Only after they committed apostasy from Moses was their Deut 30 free will taken away.
I dont know why you going in circles for,, man doesnt have freewill ability to believe in Jesus
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
You have trusted in the teachings of men,who deny the Gospel of Gods Grace.

I am not the one that follows augustine's and calvin's odd teachings Bf. I leave that to you.

I understand the good news of God's grace quite well thank you. As the bible tells us, we are saved by {God's} grace through {our} faith.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
In Rom 9 you have two distinct groups God made, the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy, which one you think the elect belonged to ? Now both groups are sinners

You still do not get it do you BF.
We are all vessels of wrath until we are in Christ. Before that we are all unsaved.

The objects of God’s wrath are the unsaved (Rom_1:18), who will suffer eternal judgment (Joh_3:36). God has patiently endured their antagonism to Him (Act_14:16; Rom_3:25), but their judgment is coming.
Those who oppose Him and refuse to turn to Him (Mat_23:37) are then “prepared / ripened” by their actions and attitudes for condemnation. They are “storing up [God’s] wrath” against themselves (Rom_2:5).

Notice carefully the phrase vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. Vessels of wrath are those whose sins make them subject to God's wrath. They are prepared for destruction because of their own sin,G264 disobedience,G544 and rebellion,H4805 and not by some arbitrary decree of God. BBC
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
I am not the one that follows augustine's and calvin's odd teachings Bf. I leave that to you.

I understand the good news of God's grace quite well thank you. As the bible tells us, we are saved by {God's} grace through {our} faith.
Men have deceived you into thinking the Doctrines of Grace/Gospel of Grace started with men.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
You still do not get it do you BF.
We are all vessels of wrath until we are in Christ. Before that we are all unsaved.

The objects of God’s wrath are the unsaved (Rom_1:18), who will suffer eternal judgment (Joh_3:36). God has patiently endured their antagonism to Him (Act_14:16; Rom_3:25), but their judgment is coming.
Those who oppose Him and refuse to turn to Him (Mat_23:37) are then “prepared / ripened” by their actions and attitudes for condemnation. They are “storing up [God’s] wrath” against themselves (Rom_2:5).
In Rom 9 you have two distinct groups God made, the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy, which one you think the elect belonged to ? Now both groups are sinners
 
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