Dying Spiritually

[JonC]

@Eternally Grateful

I have enjoyed our discussions.

We have been discussing spiritual life and the possibility of dying spiritually. Maybe it would be good to first start on things we can agree upon and go from there. This may help us define “spiritual life” as well.

These are points where I believe that we agree. If you disagree, let’s stop at the point and look at it (we do not have to agree, but I think it may help prevent speaking past one another). Reading your posts I think we agree that:

1. We are to text doctrine using the Word of God, lean not on our own understanding but on every word from God (1 Thes 5, 2 Tim 3, 1 Jn 4, Prov 3)

2. Physical life comes first, then spiritual life; Adam was created as natural man, not spiritual man, in comparison to Jesus who became a life giving spirit (1 Cor 15).

3. Spiritual life is incorruptible (1 Cor 15), given by the Spirit of God (Jn 4), everlasting (Jude 1), Christ Himself (Jn 14, Col 3), Christ living in us (Gal 2), a mind set on the Spirit (Rom 8), the spirit of God put in us (Isa 53), a life that can never end (Jn 3).

4. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment (Heb 9)

5. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ (Rom 6)


I will mention that we disagree on Genesis 2:17.

Where I read the verse as “in the day that you eat from it [the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil] you will certainly die” you read it as “you will die on the day you eat from it”. BUT we can start by agreeing on a few things.

1. The verse literally says “in the day/age you eat dying you shall die”, but I think we both agree that sounds weird in English.

2. There are four main interpretations:
A. The certainly of death (based on the Hebrew in the passage being an infinitive absolute)
B. Spiritual death
C. The death of innocence
D. Spiritual and physical death, with the latter not occurring immediately

3. After Adam ate of the fruit God told Adam only one thing that would happen to him specifically as a consequence – he would return to the ground, for “dust you are and to dust you shall return” (Gen 3)


Am I correct in thinking that we agree on the above, and in discussing whether we can spiritually die we can assume those points are true?

 

[Van]

I am pretty sure the premise of this thread, dying spiritually, is a fallacy.

Yes, God forms our human spirit within us, within our physical body. But this would need to occur just at conception, as without the spirit, the body dies.

So the fact that each human has a human spirit seems pretty basic. So what does it mean to be spiritually dead. It means to be separated from the living God. United with God = spiritually alive, separated from God = spiritually dead.

I believe at conception we are spiritually dead, separated from God because we were "made sinners."

So it would seem we cannot spiritually die, because we are already spiritually dead.

Therefore, the spiritual transformation presented in scripture is our spiritual rebirth, where we are "made alive" or "regenerated" which describes being transferred spiritually from a separated state, the realm of darkness, into Christ where we are made alive together with Christ.

And notice I have not presented any view of the "Second Death" in the Lake of Fire, where God "could" destroy our human soul/spirit. The eternal torment folks would go bonkers.

 

[Charlie24]

I am pretty sure the premise of this thread, dying spiritually, is a fallacy.

Yes, God forms our human spirit within us, within our physical body. But this would need to occur just at conception, as without the spirit, the body dies.

So the fact that each human has a human spirit seems pretty basic. So what does it mean to be spiritually dead. It means to be separated from the living God. United with God = spiritually alive, separated from God = spiritually dead.

I believe at conception we are spiritually dead, separated from God because we were "made sinners."

So it would seem we cannot spiritually die, because we are already spiritually dead.

Therefore, the spiritual transformation presented in scripture is our spiritual rebirth, where we are "made alive" or "regenerated" which describes being transferred spiritually from a separated state, the realm of darkness, into Christ where we are made alive together with Christ.

And notice I have not presented any view of the "Second Death" in the Lake of Fire, where God "could" destroy our human soul/spirit. The eternal torment folks would go bonkers.

I agree with you've said here, Van.

We are spiritually dead until by grace through faith we become spiritually alive.

The way I see spiritual death is that obviously God created man's soul to live forever it cannot actually die as in ceasing to exist.

Man that is spiritually dead has hope in this life, "a living dog is better than a dead lion," as Solomon said. At the point of physical death if man has not been made spiritually alive, I consider that person to have died a spiritual death apart from God, the Second Death.

 

[JonC]

I am pretty sure the premise of this thread, dying spiritually, is a fallacy.

Yes, God forms our human spirit within us, within our physical body. But this would need to occur just at conception, as without the spirit, the body dies.

So the fact that each human has a human spirit seems pretty basic. So what does it mean to be spiritually dead. It means to be separated from the living God. United with God = spiritually alive, separated from God = spiritually dead.

I believe at conception we are spiritually dead, separated from God because we were "made sinners."

So it would seem we cannot spiritually die, because we are already spiritually dead.

Therefore, the spiritual transformation presented in scripture is our spiritual rebirth, where we are "made alive" or "regenerated" which describes being transferred spiritually from a separated state, the realm of darkness, into Christ where we are made alive together with Christ.

And notice I have not presented any view of the "Second Death" in the Lake of Fire, where God "could" destroy our human soul/spirit. The eternal torment folks would go bonkers.

I do believe that the idea of dying spiritually is a fallacy because it goes against everything the Bible says about life in the Spirit.

But I also think that people may define "spiritual life" differently than the verses I have used.

For example, somebody (I cant recall who) a year or so ago said that dying spiritually is a separation from God. They illustrated by Adam being cast out of the Garden where he was uniquely in God's presence (the only problem being Adam was not created in the Garden so that meant he was spiritually dead, then spiritually alive, then spiritually dead again).


But yes, "natural man" (as Adam was created) is in a state of being spiritually dead so we cannot die spiritually.

My point was more that spiritual life is everlasting life and not subject to corruption.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful

I have enjoyed our discussions.

We have been discussing spiritual life and the possibility of dying spiritually. Maybe it would be good to first start on things we can agree upon and go from there. This may help us define “spiritual life” as well.

These are points where I believe that we agree. If you disagree, let’s stop at the point and look at it (we do not have to agree, but I think it may help prevent speaking past one another). Reading your posts I think we agree that:

1. We are to text doctrine using the Word of God, lean not on our own understanding but on every word from God (1 Thes 5, 2 Tim 3, 1 Jn 4, Prov 3)

2. Physical life comes first, then spiritual life; Adam was created as natural man, not spiritual man, in comparison to Jesus who became a life giving spirit (1 Cor 15).

Please not Adam was created spiritually alive, His spirit and Gods spirit was in unison, they were in relationship. they were in step. Adam did not need saved, He did not need born again. He did not need to have the HS, nor did he have the flesh nature.

This all came when he sinned. After Adam sinned. He needed saved (God showed him how by prophesying the seed which would come to take Satan, and by the animal who was slaughtered to cover Adam and his wife) He needed born again, he needed Christ death which had not yet occurred.

remember paul said this in 1 cor 15
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

The reason Christ had to come and die is on account of our sins. There could be no forgiveness apart from his death., for adam or anyone else. We would all be lost

3. Spiritual life is incorruptible (1 Cor 15), given by the Spirit of God (Jn 4), everlasting (Jude 1), Christ Himself (Jn 14, Col 3), Christ living in us (Gal 2), a mind set on the Spirit (Rom 8), the spirit of God put in us (Isa 53), a life that can never end (Jn 3).

4. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment (Heb 9)

5. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ (Rom 6)

In my view here. spiritual death is in context. Not physical death. Again, if physical death is the penalty of sin. then whoever dies physically had paid their debt and would be saved forever. as they saved themselves

I will mention that we disagree on Genesis 2:17.

Where I read the verse as “in the day that you eat from it [the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil] you will certainly die” you read it as “you will die on the day you eat from it”. BUT we can start by agreeing on a few things.

1. The verse literally says “in the day/age you eat dying you shall die”, but I think we both agree that sounds weird in English.

2. There are four main interpretations:
A. The certainly of death (based on the Hebrew in the passage being an infinitive absolute)
B. Spiritual death
C. The death of innocence
D. Spiritual and physical death, with the latter not occurring immediately

3. After Adam ate of the fruit God told Adam only one thing that would happen to him specifically as a consequence – he would return to the ground, for “dust you are and to dust you shall return” (Gen 3)

Again, there was a massive change in adam

Adam knew God intimately. He knew him better than any person living today can even think of knowing him, He walked with him for an unknown amount of time. He had a relationship with God not tainted by the flesh nature. and he talked one on 1 with God

1. After he sinned, knowing before God was omnipresent. Adam forgot. and this was now foolish to him, so he thought he could hide from God

2. After he sinned. Adam knowing God knew all things. even the innermost thoughts of adam. This became foolish to him. He tried to blame his wife. And then he tried to blame God for giving him his wife.

3. After he sinned, Adam knowing God would take care of ALL his needs. Tried to not only Hide from God. but cover his own sin, by using fig leaves.

scripture says the things of God are foolishness to those who are not his. Like they were foolish to us before we can to faith. they were foolish to Adam the moment he sinned.

Something happened. there was not only a separation between Adam and God that required God to restore him (symbolized by the death of an animal. note that this was the first death in Gods creation. imagine how horrified and how repentant Adam must have been, knowing it was his action that caused the death of this innocent anima.

again, I believe there is a result of adams sin - the fall of mankind. the dying of the earth and mankind. Disease, death, sickness all these things, even death are a result of sin.

but the penalty of sin is separation from God. that can only be restored by the cross.

Again, I have to wonder if it is just terms.

Spiritual death to me is a separation of man from God. a barrier. that barrier being sin.

Am I correct in thinking that we agree on the above, and in discussing whether we can spiritually die we can assume those points are true?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I do believe that the idea of dying spiritually is a fallacy because it goes against everything the Bible says about life in the Spirit.

Life in the spirit does not occure until one is born again though

Spiritual death is our status or our state before we are born again

But I also think that people may define "spiritual life" differently than the verses I have used.

I think again, the new birth is the result of being born again, Spiritual life is what happens after.

For example, somebody (I cant recall who) a year or so ago said that dying spiritually is a separation from God. They illustrated by Adam being cast out of the Garden where he was uniquely in God's presence (the only problem being Adam was not created in the Garden so that meant he was spiritually dead, then spiritually alive, then spiritually dead again).

he was not create din the garden?

and I disagree with the user who said this. God cast Adam out of the garden because of the tree of life. Imagine adam or mankind living forever in a spiritually dead state.. We think the would is bad now.. look out

But yes, "natural man" (as Adam was created) is in a state of being spiritually dead so we cannot die spiritually.

Adam was created in union with God. he was not created spiritually dead..

My point was more that spiritual life is everlasting life and not subject to corruption.

Yes 100 % This is for those who are born again, As jesus said, we will never perish, and we will live forever (eternal life) this life of course being spiritual

 

[Ben1445]

I don’t think that the topic can be considered without also answering the physical aspects of death.
When Adam and Eve were judged before their removal from the garden, they were given both physical and spiritual judgment. What I see is that there are physical and spiritual consequences of that sin. Each have significance and some parallel in meaning between the physical and spiritual. I don’t think that you can be fair to the topic by ignoring the physical aspects.
I don’t have time this morning to go further. I will catch up when I can.

 

[Van]

I agree with you've said here, Van.

We are spiritually dead until by grace through faith we become spiritually alive.

The way I see spiritual death is that obviously God created man's soul to live forever it cannot actually die as in ceasing to exist.

Man that is spiritually dead has hope in this life, "a living dog is better than a dead lion," as Solomon said. At the point of physical death if man has not been made spiritually alive, I consider that person to have died a spiritual death apart from God, the Second Death.

I think we agree, a "spiritually dead" human spirit still animates our human bodies, giving it life. So "spiritually dead" or "dead in our sins" does not mean unable to perform as the "spirit/soul" of our human body. The fiction that being spiritually dead means spiritually inert has absolutely no support in scripture, it is a Calvinist canard.

We definitely agree, while spiritually dead, a lost person can hope for eternal life, such as the "Rich Young Ruler" and many seek the narrow door that leads to life, Luke 13:24.

We disagree that the human spirit, as God can destroy the human "soul/spirit" in Gehenna, so it can "actually die."

 

[Van]

I do believe that the idea of dying spiritually is a fallacy because it goes against everything the Bible says about life in the Spirit.

But I also think that people may define "spiritual life" differently than the verses I have used.

For example, somebody (I cant recall who) a year or so ago said that dying spiritually is a separation from God. They illustrated by Adam being cast out of the Garden where he was uniquely in God's presence (the only problem being Adam was not created in the Garden so that meant he was spiritually dead, then spiritually alive, then spiritually dead again).


But yes, "natural man" (as Adam was created) is in a state of being spiritually dead so we cannot die spiritually.

My point was more that spiritual life is everlasting life and not subject to corruption.

Yes, we agree, no one since Adam and Eve spiritually died, as they were all made sinners, already spiritually dead.

Yes, we agree, people talk past each other, using different meanings for the same phrase, such as "dead in sins."

I certainly have said before, spiritually dying is being separated from God due to unholiness. Thus at conception, natural man, lost people, as made sinners, are made in a spiritually separated state, just as if they had sinned. This state is not because they had sinned, but because of the consequence of Adam's sin, Romans 5:19.

Adam did not die spiritually because He was cast out of the garden, that physical action simply illustrates the spiritual separation caused by Adam's sin. Isaiah 59:2 Adam and Eve were both spiritually "together with God" until "their eyes were opened." Genesis 3:5-7 Adam and Eve were both created in a spiritually alive state, and they both, uniquely, spiritually died after being spiritually alive.

And yes, we agree, once a person is transferred spiritually into Christ and undergoes the washing of regeneration, the result is they are made spiritually alive together with Christ. The consequence of their sin is removed, the washing, so there is no cause for spiritual separation, and therefore they are "made alive (spiritually regenerated) together with Christ."

 

[Charlie24]

I think we agree, a "spiritually dead" human spirit still animates our human bodies, giving it life. So "spiritually dead" or "dead in our sins" does not mean unable to perform as the "spirit/soul" of our human body. The fiction that being spiritually dead means spiritually inert has absolutely no support in scripture, it is a Calvinist canard.

We definitely agree, while spiritually dead, a lost person can hope for eternal life, such as the "Rich Young Ruler" and many seek the narrow door that leads to life, Luke 13:24.

We disagree that the human spirit, as God can destroy the human "soul/spirit" in Gehenna, so it can "actually die."

We don't ;have to see these things identically, it matters but we don't have to push it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don’t think that the topic can be considered without also answering the physical aspects of death.
When Adam and Eve were judged before their removal from the garden, they were given both physical and spiritual judgment. What I see is that there are physical and spiritual consequences of that sin. Each have significance and some parallel in meaning between the physical and spiritual. I don’t think that you can be fair to the topic by ignoring the physical aspects.
I don’t have time this morning to go further. I will catch up when I can.

It depends on how deep we want to go.

are we talk about all the consequences of sin.

or are we talking about the consequence of sin which Caused Jesus to suffer the death of the cross?

 

[Van]

We don't ;have to see these things identically, it matters but we don't have to push it.

We should seek consensus and unity. Proverbs 27:17. To claim God cannot destroy what He created seems odd.

 

[Charlie24]

We should seek consensus and unity. Proverbs 27:17. To claim God cannot destroy what He created seems odd.

There will be no unity on these boards, you know that as well as I.

No need for us to push it and create a division. But at the same time state what we believe.

 

[JesusFan]

I do believe that the idea of dying spiritually is a fallacy because it goes against everything the Bible says about life in the Spirit.

But I also think that people may define "spiritual life" differently than the verses I have used.

For example, somebody (I cant recall who) a year or so ago said that dying spiritually is a separation from God. They illustrated by Adam being cast out of the Garden where he was uniquely in God's presence (the only problem being Adam was not created in the Garden so that meant he was spiritually dead, then spiritually alive, then spiritually dead again).


But yes, "natural man" (as Adam was created) is in a state of being spiritually dead so we cannot die spiritually.

My point was more that spiritual life is everlasting life and not subject to corruption.

Adam was created with very nature of sinless humanity, and as such, had both perfect spiritual and physical life, but got cursed by God in the fall, and right then died spiritually and started to die physically

 

[Van]

There will be no unity on these boards, you know that as well as I.

No need for us to push it and create a division. But at the same time state what we believe.

Just because others behave poorly does not suggest we should behave poorly. We are to give a defense for what believe is truth and not tolerate what we believe are false teachings. God can destroy the human soul/spirit in Gehenna, and those that claim otherwise are wrong.

 

[Charlie24]

Just because others behave poorly does not suggest we should behave poorly. We are to give a defense for what believe is truth and not tolerate what we believe are false teachers. God can destroy the human soul/spirit in Gehenna, and those that claim otherwise are wrong.

LOL, you're picking a fight, Brother!

You know I disagree with the soul and spirit being literally destroyed in Hell.

Let's don't push it, Van. I would rather get along with you.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

To whom it may concern: Consider the following passage:
(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Spiritually dead at physical birth)
(Eph 2:2 KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Eph 2:3 KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Eph 2:4 KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved (Spiritually alive after being born-again)
(Eph 2:6 KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 2:7 KJV) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9 KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[JonC]

Life in the spirit does not occure until one is born again though

Spiritual death is our status or our state before we are born again

I think again, the new birth is the result of being born again, Spiritual life is what happens after.

he was not create din the garden?

and I disagree with the user who said this. God cast Adam out of the garden because of the tree of life. Imagine adam or mankind living forever in a spiritually dead state.. We think the would is bad now.. look out

Adam was created in union with God. he was not created spiritually dead..

Yes 100 % This is for those who are born again, As jesus said, we will never perish, and we will live forever (eternal life) this life of course being spiritual

We agree mostly. The only part we might disagree is about where Adam was created (if I understood you correctly).

What I meant was that Adam was created and afterwards God put him in the Garden. When Adam sinned God returned him to where he was taken.

"Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden" (Gen 2:15)

"therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken" (Gen 3:23)


I find this interesting because Adam was not initially in that unique fellowship with God (in the Garden). His sin disqualified him from remaining, lest he take from the Tree of Life.

It is very similar to the Law and the tabernacle (God's presence, the division that existed within).

Anyway, Jesus' work of redemption does not restore us to what Adam was but instead recreates us into what Adam failed to be.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We agree mostly. The only part we might disagree is about where Adam was created (if I understood you correctly).

What I meant was that Adam was created and afterwards God put him in the Garden. When Adam sinned God returned him to where he was taken.

"Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden" (Gen 2:15)

"therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken" (Gen 3:23)

I find this interesting because Adam was not initially in that unique fellowship with God (in the Garden).

So Adam when created was not in that unique fellowship. or after he sinned?

His sin disqualified him from remaining, lest he take from the Tree of Life.

It is very similar to the Law and the tabernacle (God's presence, the division that existed within).

Anyway, Jesus' work of redemption does not restore us to what Adam was but instead recreates us into what Adam failed to be.

His sin disqualified him from having any relationship with God.. He had to (like us) be born again.

 

[Zaatar71]

Adam was created with very nature of sinless humanity, and as such, had both perfect spiritual and physical life, but got cursed by God in the fall, and right then died spiritually and started to die physically

Yes, you are the only one that has is right. Others have a part of it right, but are thrown off by the wording from the OP.
The OP. and Others deny the creation account, and the full effects of the fall. Until that is dealt with, no progress can be made. Van in his first post was getting close to the truth, but by his other posts, he went back to his obsession with attacking Calvinism and drifted from his first post.