None after Adam save for Jesus Himself had any more a "full free will" as Adam was originally created with
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Dying Spiritually
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I did not ask this Jon, I asked if they were in a relationship the moment God created him, What sperated the two when God created adam if they were not united?
They lost unity when adam sinned. yes..
Yes.
Yes. so as God said, he passed over the sins previously committed.
Based on what?
yes
As do I. I do not see why you would think otherwise.
Yes. But the nature to sin did not come until after the fall.
How are we going to get along, unless you stop posting falsehoods. My me remaining silent as you promote false teachings in my opinion?
Yes. All men are in a relationship with God. Adam was as well (he was created as "natural man").
The issue is the type of relationship. We will enjoy a relationship in "God's presence". God will dwell once again with man as God did in the Garden.
The Bible tells is God passed over sins previously committed (prior to the Promise being fulfilled) based on the Promise being fulfilled.
He forgives sins based on "repentance", "a new heart", "turning from evil", "turning to God", etc. This is a spiritual birth ("born of the Spirit", "made a new creation in Christ").
Post #8 said:
Post #9 said:
Notice that referring to Luke 13:24 where natural people, unregenerate, seek God searching for the narrow door proves spiritually dead people can seek God, is an attack rather than a defense from scripture.
Bonkers delight! God can destroy the human "soul/spirit" in Gehenna, the second death.
Matthew 10:28 NASB
“And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
Notice "Kill" and "Destroy" are used to describe what eventually might happen in the lake of fire. Ditto for "destroy" and "second death."
The term olethros (ὄλεθρος) refers to destruction, ruin, or utter devastation, most notably as found in the Bible's description of eternal destruction from God's presence as a punishment for the ungodly. This is not a state of annihilation or non-existence, but a perpetual state of irreversible loss and separation from God, representing the opposite of eternal life.
Adam was in a right relationship with God when created, had spiritual life, and when he sinned, that aspect of Him died away
I know what you believe. You do not add to the conversation by restating what you believe. You need Scrioture, mot your opinion.
By Scripture what I mean is something like Paul's words you reject.
Adam did not need the messiah until after he fell, had no broken relationship with God, correct?
To be God's presence (like in the Garden), Adam did need Christ as evidenced by the fact Adam sinned. Paul makes this fairly clear when he notes that "Adam was made a living soul", "natural man", and contrasts this eith "spiritual man".
Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Even Adam needed to be "born of the Spirit".
Had Adam been "born of the Spirit", had "a mind set on the Spirit" then Afam would not have sinned ("a mind set on the flesh is death").
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Um no. all men are not in a relationship with God. we are not in a relationship until we are born again
Yes, and what was the promise that was fulfilled? was it not the cross?
Yes, based on repentance. But not because we turned. But because we had faith.
He who believes will never perish.. They are not condemned
He who does not believe is condemned already
what seperates the two is the cross (John 3)
No, as clearly Adam was in a right relationship with God until he fell and sinned in the fall, and in such a state of innocence, needed no savior for his sins util he actually sinned
Adam was in a right relationship before he sinned.
Have you ever read Ezekiel 28?
You had the seal of perfection. . . You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: . . . You were the anointed cherub who covers . . . You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways om the day you were created ntil unrighteousness was found in you. . . . And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profaneFrom the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
You have been led astray by your philosophy and theories. I encourage you to return to G9d and His Word.
There are just too many passages you deny to ignore the problem. We are not talking about differences in interoretation but outright denial of Scripture.
Why reject the Pauline epistles (specifically 2 Corinthians)? Do you not believe that they are Scripture?
Adam needed a Savior because he needed to be "born of the Spirit" abd "made into the image of Christ" in order to be "n the presence of God".
How do we know this? Because Adam sinned.
You can play the "but what 8f Adam did not sin" game all day. That is theory. Adam DID sin, which proved that he needed to be "of the Spirit" rather than "of the flesh".
This is simply not true. The lost ARE in a relationship with God. He is their Creator. He is STILL their Lord. They are condemned because of this relationship.
My point is that Adam was not created in the relationship he had with God in the Garden. He was created and then placed in the Garden where God walked among man and then cast out to where he was created.
Yes. We are forgiven based on reoentance, on "a new heart", and yes, this is what God does - We are "born of the Spirit" and not longer "natural man" (as Paul says Adam was when created) but "spiritual man" due to the work of God.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
No they are not. if they were, they would not be dead and need to be born again.
No they are condemned because of unbelief (John 3)
He most certainly was
God was with him the moment he was created. I do not know where you are getting your thinking from..
Based on redemption which was paid by the blood of the cross.
The cross is the means of forgiveness. without the cross. we would all be doomed
Correct....some try and blur the line...saying Adam was created A natural man. They Go to Paul speaking of resurrection of the body in first Cor.15.
They do not go to Paul when Paul says the natural man cannot believe the things of the Spirit of God however,
lol
No one else knows either!
The bottom line is we can speculate but what we know is:
1. Adam was created "natural" as opposed to "spiritual" (1 Cor 15)
2. Adam had a "mind set on the flesh" as opposed to a "mind set on the Spirit" (Romans 8)
3. Spiritual life is incorriptable (1 Peter 1)
4. Spiritual life is everlasting (John 3)
5. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3)
The task is not to speculate but to prove that Adam
1. had a life that was incorriptable.
2. had a life that was everlasting.
3. was born of the Spirit
4. was created both natural man and spiritual man
5. had a mind set on the Spirit
The reason the lost are condemned is their relationship with God. Scripture tells us that natural man cannot please God, that the lost are at enmity with God. By definition this is a relationship.
Now...it is not a relationship we want or have now....but it is a relationship. God is the God of the saved abd the lost. The lost deny Him, but that does not change who He is. He is Lord over all creation and even the lost owe their existence to Him.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
its called spiritual seperation, Its called spiritual death.
In adam ALL DIE
In Christ (through the cross) shall all be made alive
All I have to do is prove before Adam and Eve sinned that they had not sinned. at even any time. to know they were in right standing with God..
your passage in cor 15 does not help you. Your taking it out of context for our discussion.
As for the rest
Adam was incorruptabe before he sinned
Adam, if he did not sin, would never have died
Adam did not need to be born of the spirit before he sinned
All men are created natural and spiritual. The spirit part of man is however separated from God (dead)
After they sinned, they lost this right standing, and incurred a debt which had to be paid before the relationship can be restored.
There is no relationship between the lost and God.. That's why the lost can do not good. that's why there is none righteous no not one... Thats why they do not seek God. Gods seeks them, then based on the cross. forces them to chose to continue in unbelief or chose to repent.