Dying Spiritually

[Zaatar71]

From Got questions;
The concept of spiritual death in Genesis is often interpreted as a separation from God, which occurred immediately after Adam and Eve sinned. This separation led to their estrangement from God and the loss of their relationship with Him. The physical death that followed was a result of the consequences of their sin, which included the loss of their original state of innocence and fellowship with God. The spiritual death was a consequence of their disobedience, and it is this separation that is considered the immediate and significant aspect of their sin.

 

[Zaatar71]

From The Bible fulfilled;

Many Christians believe that the penalty for Adam and Eve eating the “forbidden fruit” from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil—a.k.a. the Fall—was physical death (Gen. 2:17). Therefore, physical death must one day be overcome so that things will be restored to what they were like before the Fall.

As popular as this view is among Christians, the Scriptural evidence is stacked against it. To start with, the Bible teaches that the penalty for eating the forbidden fruit (aka sin) was spiritual death—not physical death. Back in the Garden of Eden, God had warned Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because “in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:17). Yet after eating the forbidden fruit, Adam lived physically to 930 years old (see Genesis 5)! Adam and Eve even had children afterward (Gen. 4:25). Clearly, their punishment was not physical death; it was spiritual death, which is defined as separation from God.[1]

Since the punishment for eating the forbidden fruit (sin) was spiritual death, then the restoration—aka resurrection—must be spiritual too.

Common objection #1: It’s true that Adam and Eve did not die physically on the day they ate the forbidden fruit; however, they began to die that day. The literal Hebrew rendering of Genesis 2:17 is “In the day you eat, dying you shall die” (italics mine). So Adam and Eve began dying physically on the day they ate the forbidden fruit; and eventually, after nine hundred years, they finished dying.
There is also a glaring scriptural problem. Compare God telling Adam, “In the day you eat, you will surely die” (Gen. 2:17) to the serpent telling Eve, “For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil” (Gen. 3:4).

Both passages say something would happen “in the day you eat.” Yet we know for certain that the latter event happened right away—not nine centuries later:

“So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings” (Gen. 3:6–7, italics mine).

Adam’s and Eve’s eyes were opened the day they ate—not nine centuries later. Their eyes did not begin to open that day; they opened in full! Therefore, they must have also died that day in full. And since they died in full on the day they ate, their death could not have been physical.

 

[JonC]

why not? Why did adam and God not have this relationship?

Adam was born perfect. what caused any seperation?

I see God gave man free will and tested him.

Well, we know that Adam did not have that relationship in the Garden because the Bible tells us so. But we cannot read the "why".

The "why?" is a natural question. I remember telling my son something when he was a child, and he often asked "why?".

I think the "why" is Adam was never intended to be the end state of man, but was a "seed" that must fade for the plant to sprout. I believe that the creation of Adam always had Christ as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" in mind.

I can say that Adam was created a living soul, but "natural man" as opposed to "spiritual man".
Adam was upright. This reminds me of the language of the "covering cherub " bring perfect until sin was found in [him]" (Eze 28).

 

[JonC]

Adam was created with very nature of sinless humanity, and as such, had both perfect spiritual and physical life, but got cursed by God in the fall, and right then died spiritually and started to die physically

Adam was created upright, and until sin was found in him he was sinless.

But here I truly believe we should trust God's Word rather than speculation.

Paul tells us that Adam was created as natural man, which he contrasts with spiritual man. So we really need ti be careful not to reject Scripture.

Paul's epistles ARE just as much God's Word as the rest of the Bible. To decide they do not matter is wrong.

 

[Zaatar71]

And breathed into his nostrils [114] Whatever the greater part of the ancients might think, I do not hesitate to subscribe to the opinion of those who explain this passage of the animal life of man; and thus I expound what they call the vital spirits by the word breath. Should any one object, that if so, no distinction would be made between man and other living creatures, since here Moses relates only what is common alike to all: I answer, though here mention is made only of the lower faculty of the soul, which imparts breath to the body, and gives it vigor and motion: this does not prevent the human soul from having its proper rank, and therefore it ought to be distinguished from others. [115] Moses first speaks of the breath; he then adds, that a soul was given to man by which he might live, and be endued with sense and motion. Now we know that the powers of the human mind are many and various. Wherefore, there is nothing absurd in supposing that Moses here alludes only to one of them; but omits the intellectual part, of which mention has been made in the first chapter. Three gradations, indeed, are to be noted in the creation of man; that his dead body was formed out of the dust of the earth; that it was endued with a soul, whence it should receive vital motion; and that on this soul God engraved his own image, to which immortality is annexed.

Man became a living soul [116] I take nphs (nepesh,) for the very essence of the soul: but the epithet living suits only the present place, and does not embrace generally the powers of the soul. For Moses intended nothing more than to explain the animating of the clayey figure, whereby it came to pass that man began to live. Paul makes an antithesis between this living soul and the quickening spirit which Christ confers upon the faithful, (1 Corinthians 15:45,) for no other purpose than to teach us that the state of man was not perfected in the person of Adam; but it is a peculiar benefit conferred by Christ, that we may be renewed to a life which is celestial, whereas before the fall of Adams man's life was only earthly, seeing it had no firm and settled constancy.
Vs17: But it is asked, what kind of death God means in this place? It appears to me, that the definition of this death is to be sought from its opposite; we must, I say, remember from what kind of life man fell. He was, in every respect, happy; his life, therefore, had alike respect to his body and his soul, since in his soul a right judgment and a proper government of the affections prevailed, there also life reigned; in his body there was no defect, wherefore he was wholly free from death. His earthly life truly would have been temporal; yet he would have passed into heaven without death, and without injury.

Death, therefore, is now a terror to us; first, because there is a kind of annihilation, as it respects the body; then, because the soul feels the curse of God. We must also see what is the cause of death, namely alienation from God. Thence it follows, that under the name of death is comprehended all those miseries in which Adam involved himself by his defection; for as soon as he revolted from God, the fountain of life, he was cast down from his former state, in order that he might perceive the life of man without God to be wretched and lost, and therefore differing nothing from death.

Hence the condition of man after his sin is not improperly called both the privation of life, and death. The miseries and evils both of soul and body, with which man is beset so long as he is on earth, are a kind of entrance into death, till death itself entirely absorbs him; for the Scripture everywhere calls those dead who, being oppressed by the tyranny of sin and Satan, breath nothing but their own destruction. Wherefore the question is superfluous, how it was that God threatened death to Adam on the day in which he should touch the fruit, when he long deferred the punishment? For then was Adam consigned to death, and death began its reign in him, until supervening grace should bring a remedy.Calvin

 

[Zaatar71]

Adam in his original creation, pre fall was not created a natural man only. To read back from 1 Cor 15, is to take Paul wrong. Some fabricate their own ideas on this.
Matthew Henry;
2. The high origin and the admirable serviceableness of the soul of man.

(1.) It takes its rise from the breath of heaven, and is produced by it. It was not made of the earth, as the body was; it is a pity then that it should cleave to the earth, and mind earthly things.

It came immediately from God; he gave it to be put into the body (Eccl. 12:7), as afterwards he gave the tables of stone of his own writing to be put into the ark, and the urim of his own framing to be put into the breast-plate. Hence God is not only the former but the Father of spirits. Let the soul which God has breathed into us breathe after him; and let it be for him, since it is from him. Into his hands let us commit our spirits, for from his hands we had them.

(2.) It takes its lodging in a house of clay, and is the life and support of it. It is by it that man is a living soul, that is, a living man; for the soul is the man. The body would be a worthless, useless, loathsome carcase, if the soul did not animate it. To God that gave us these souls we must shortly give an account of them, how we have employed them, used them, proportioned them, and disposed of them; and if then it be found that we have lost them, though it were to gain the world, we shall be undone for ever.

Since the extraction of the soul is so noble, and its nature and faculties are so excellent, let us not be of those fools that despise their own souls, by preferring their bodies before them, Prov. 15:32. When our Lord Jesus anointed the blind man’s eyes with clay perhaps he intimated that it was he who at first formed man out of the clay; and when he breathed on his disciples, saying, Receive you the Holy Ghost, he intimated that it was he who at first breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life. He that made the soul is alone able to new-make it.

 

[Zaatar71]

2. THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES IT. There are direct statements of Scripture that point to the universal sinfulness of man, such as I Kings 8:46; Ps. 143:2; Prov. 20:9; Eccl. 7:20; Rom. 3:1-12,19,20,23; Gal. 3:22; Jas. 3:2; I John 1:8,10.

Several passages of Scripture teach that sin is the heritage of man from the time of his birth, and is therefore present in human nature so early that it cannot possibly be considered as the result of imitation, Ps. 51:5; Job 14:4; John 3:6.

In Ephesians 2:3 Paul says of the Ephesians that they "were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." In this passage the term "by nature" points to something inborn and original, as distinguished from what is subsequently acquired. Sin, then, is something original, in which all men participate, and which makes them guilty before God.

Moreover, according to Scripture, death is visited even upon those who have never exercised a personal and conscious choice, Rom. 5:12-14. This passage implies that sin exists in the case of infants prior to moral consciousness. Since infants die, and therefore the effect of sin is present in their case, it is but natural to assume that the cause is also present. Louis Berkof

 

[Zaatar71]

Moreover we ought to bear in mind the following Scriptural data:

(1) Man was created in the image of God and this, in view of the perfect condition in which the image of God existed originally, would seem to exclude the possibility of his carrying within him the seeds of dissolution and mortality.

(2) Physical death is not represented in Scripture as the natural result of the continuation of the original condition of man, due to his failure to rise to the height of immortality by the path of obedience; but as the result of his spiritual death, Rom. 6:23; 5:21; I Cor. 15:56; Jas. 1:15.

(3) Scriptural expressions certainly point to death as something introduced into the world of humanity by sin, and as a positive punishment for sin, Gen. 2:17; 3:19; Rom. 5:12,17; 6:23; I Cor. 15:21; Jas. 1:15.

(4) Death is not represented as something natural in the life of man, a mere falling short of an ideal, but very decidedly as something foreign and hostile to human life: it is an expression of divine anger, Ps. 90:7,11, a judgment, Rom. 1:32, a condemnation, Rom. 5:16, and a curse, Gal. 3:13, and fills the hearts of the children of men with dread and fear, just because it is felt to be something unnatural. All this does not mean, however, that there may not have been death in some sense of the word in the lower creation apart from sin, but even there the entrance of sin evidently brought a bondage of corruption that was foreign to the creature, Rom. 8:20-22.

In strict justice God might have imposed death on man in the fullest sense of the word immediately after his transgression, Gen. 2:17. But by His common grace He restrained the operation of sin and death, and by His special grace in Christ Jesus He conquered these hostile forces, Rom. 5:17; I Cor. 15:45; II Tim. 1:10; Heb. 2:14; Rev. 1:18; 20:14. Death now accomplishes its work fully only in the lives of those who refuse the deliverance from it that is offered in Jesus Christ. Those who believe in Christ are freed from the power of death, are restored to communion with God, and are endowed with an endless life, John 3:36; 6:40; Rom. 5:17-21; 8:23; I Cor. 15:26,51-57; Rev. 20:14; 21:3,4.

Louis Berkof, Systematic theology

 

[Zaatar71]

(1.) That this corruption of nature affects the whole soul.

(2.) That it consists in the loss or absence of original righteousness, and consequent entire moral depravity of our nature, including or manifesting itself in an aversion from all spiritual good, or from God, and an inclination to all evil.

(3.) That it is truly and properly of the nature of sin, involving both guilt and pollution.

(4.) That it retains its character as sin even in the regenerated.

5.) That it renders the soul spiritually dead, so that the natural, or unrenewed man, is entirely unable of himself to do anything good in the sight of God.

This doctrine therefore stands opposed, —

1. To that which teaches that the race of man is uninjured by the fall of Adam.

2. To that which teaches that the evils consequent on the fall are merely physical.

3. To the doctrine which makes original sin entirely negative, consisting in the want of original righteousness.

4. To the doctrine which admits a hereditary depravity of nature, and makes it consist in an inclination to sin, but denies that it is itself sinful.
Charles Hodge

 

[Zaatar71]

That the Scriptures favor dichotomy will appear by considering:
(a) The record of man’s creation ( <010207>Genesis 2:7), in which, as a result of the in-breathing of the divine Spirit, the body becomes possessed and vitalized by a single principle — the living soul. <010207> Genesis 2:7 — “And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here it is not said that man was first a living soul, and that then God breathed into him a spirit; but that God in breathed spirit, and man became a living soul = God’s life took possession of clay and as a result, man had a soul.

Cf. <182703>Job 27:3 — “For my life is yet whole i) n me. And the spirit of God is in my nostrils”; 32:8 — “there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty giveth them understanding”; 33:4 — “The Spirit of God bath made me, And the breath of the Almighty giveth me life.”

(b) Passages in which the human soul, or spirit, is distinguished, both from the divine Spirit from whom it proceeded, and from the body which it inhabits: <041622> Numbers 16:22 — “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh”; <381201> Zechariah 12:1 — “Jehovah, who… formeth the spirit of man within him”; <460211>

1 Corinthians 2:11 — “the spirit of the man which is in him… the Spirit of God”; <581209>Hebrews 12:9 — “the Father of spirits.” The passages just mentioned distinguish the spirit of man from the Spirit of God. The following distinguish the soul, or spirit, of man from the body which it inhabits: <012518>Genesis 25:18 — “it came to pass, as her soul was departing (for she died)”; <111721>1 Kings 17:21 — “Jehovah my God, I pray.thee, let this child’s soul come into him again”; <211207>Ecclesiastes 12:7 — “the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it”; <590226>James 2:26 — “the body apart from the spirit is dead.” The first class of passages refutes pantheism; the second refutes materialism. (c) The interchangeable use of the terms ‘soul’ and ‘spirit.’ <014108> Genesis 41:8 — “his spirit was troubled” cf. <194206>Psalm 42:6 — “my soul is cast down within me.” <431227>John 12:27 — ‘‘Now is my soul troubled”; cf. 13:21 — “he was troubled in the spirit.” <402028>Matthew 20:28 — “to give his life yuch>n a ransom for many”; cf. 27:50 — “yielded up his spirit pneu~ma ”; <581223>Hebrews 12:23 — “spirits of just men made perfect”; cf., <660609>Revelation 6:9 — “I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God,” In these passages ‘spirit” and ‘soul” seem to be used interchangeably. (d) The mention of body and soul (or spirit) as together constituting the whole man: <401028> Matthew 10:28 — “able to destroy both soul and body in hell”; <460503>1 Corinthians 5:3 — “absent in body but present in spirit”; 3 John 2 — “I pray that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” These texts imply that body and soul (or spirit), together constitute the whole man
Strongs Systematic Theology

 

[Eternally Grateful]

All humans will be physically resurrected to live forever in either heaven or Lake of Fire

A child of God is resurrected. A child of Satan is delivered

Rev 20: . 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Well, we know that Adam did not have that relationship in the Garden because the Bible tells us so. But we cannot read the "why".

Adam and God was not in unison? In relationship?

The "why?" is a natural question. I remember telling my son something when he was a child, and he often asked "why?".

I think the "why" is Adam was never intended to be the end state of man, but was a "seed" that must fade for the plant to sprout. I believe that the creation of Adam always had Christ as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" in mind.

That sounds a little Calvinistic to me.. I think God created man to love and serve them. Although he knew they were going to fall.

I can say that Adam was created a living soul, but "natural man" as opposed to "spiritual man".

He still was born in right standing with God. this is called spiritual life.. His spirit died when he sinned. and his relationship was severed. and he needed saved

Adam was upright. This reminds me of the language of the "covering cherub " bring perfect until sin was found in [him]" (Eze 28).

Yes. and being perfect. He did not need a savior. He was one with God. the only "Man" who ever by his own merit was right with God for a time

 

[Paleouss]

That the Scriptures favor dichotomy will appear by considering:

Greetings Zaatar. Thank you for your witness and your time on this sight.

Regarding the topic of 'Is man a Dichotomy or a Trichotomy?', I would seem to fall somewhat in the middle. I'll try to present a snippet of my position (one I think the Bible teaches). It seems to me that the Bible clearly teaches that mankind is one being, one whole. Hence why Christ resurrects the body AND soul on the last days. So I deny any form a strict dualism that asserts the body is not needed or part of a particular person.

Further, mankind can be logically divided (and physically divided for a time), through scriptural data, into an "outer self" and an "inner self" (2Cor 4:16). However, the inner self can be further divided biblically and logically into a spirit and soul. Each having separate functions and roles within the biblical text.

I might point out here that what I have just said is that the inner self is inherently one (in this sense I am similar to the dichotomist). But we are able to logically divide this inner self through biblical understanding into two parts (spirit and soul) and distinguish powers, that is functions, of each based on scripture. In this sense I am similar to a Trichotomist).

(a) The record of man’s creation ( <010207>Genesis 2:7), in which, as a result of the in-breathing of the divine Spirit, the body becomes possessed and vitalized by a single principle — the living soul. <010207> Genesis 2:7 — “And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here it is not said that man was first a living soul, and that then God breathed into him a spirit; but that God in breathed spirit, and man became a living soul = God’s life took possession of clay and as a result, man had a soul.

Cf. <182703>Job 27:3 — “For my life is yet whole i) n me. And the spirit of God is in my nostrils”; 32:8 — “there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty giveth them understanding”; 33:4 — “The Spirit of God bath made me, And the breath of the Almighty giveth me life.”

I don't agree with this understanding of the Genesis formula of Adam's creation. This is a common error, imo. Many contend that Genesis 2:7 is a formula of A+B=C. As an example of this, water + sugar = sugar water. The formula in Genesis 2:7 is not a demonstration that mankind is like sugar water.

The formula in Genesis 2:7 is ... A+B+C=D: (A) “dust” plus (B) “breath” plus (C) the “creative act” equals (D) a “new element”. So it's like the formula for a new element not a formula for sugar water.

The formula in Gen 2:7 is likened unto the creation of a new element, like taking two adams (dust and spirit) and through the process of combining them (creative act) a new element “becomes” or “emerges”. This new element that emerges still retains some of the characteristics of the two ingredients, but it is not simply two ingredients put together like sugar water. They, the previous ingredients, are now logical components of a whole (in oneness) that is something new, a new element, in which its previous ingredients can be logically divided and understood but not easily distinguishable as separate. Just like a new element and its neutrons, electrons and protons.

So what we see in Genesis 2:7 is separate elements of (1) dust [which is otherness from God], (2) breath [which is spirit and life from God], and something 'becoming' out of the creative process that is called a (3) soul. The 'soul' emerges from the creative process of dust and breath (spirit). Now we have an emerged 'soul' that has 'become'. The dust, or body, is still there. The breath, or spirit of life, is still there. Now we have three logical components but only one whole.

I would address your other points but would probably be getting to far off the OP.


Peace to you brother.

 

[JonC]

Adam and God was not in unison? In relationship?

That sounds a little Calvinistic to me.. I think God created man to love and serve them. Although he knew they were going to fall.



He still was born in right standing with God. this is called spiritual life.. His spirit died when he sinned. and his relationship was severed. and he needed saved

Yes. and being perfect. He did not need a savior. He was one with God. the only "Man" who ever by his own merit was right with God for a time

Adam and God were not at first in the relationship Adam enjoyed with God in the Garden.

Obviously Adam and God were not in unison (as evidenced by Adam's disobedience). Adam was created natural man, flesh. God is Spirit.

It is not Calvinistic, but I understand why it could sound that way. I believe that Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and that God knew what would occur before He took Adam and put him in the Garden.

The difference is I do not believe God decreed the Fall. But I do belueve God is "all knowing" and that He has a plan for His creation.

Yes, Adam was created "upright". Adam was not created already having sinned. Adam chose to sin.

Here is where you sound just a little Calvinistic ;-). I believe that Adam was created with free will and I belueve we also have free will. Just like Adam we freely choose the desires of the flesh (obviously, because just like Adam we are "natural man" and need to be "born of the Spirit" as "flesh begats flesh" and "Spirit begats spirit".

 

[Zaatar71]

Greetings Zaatar. Thank you for your witness and your time on this sight.

Regarding the topic of 'Is man a Dichotomy or a Trichotomy?', I would seem to fall somewhat in the middle. I'll try to present a snippet of my position (one I think the Bible teaches). It seems to me that the Bible clearly teaches that mankind is one being, one whole. Hence why Christ resurrects the body AND soul on the last days. So I deny any form a strict dualism that asserts the body is not needed or part of a particular person.

Further, mankind can be logically divided (and physically divided for a time), through scriptural data, into an "outer self" and an "inner self" (2Cor 4:16). However, the inner self can be further divided biblically and logically into a spirit and soul. Each having separate functions and roles within the biblical text.

I might point out here that what I have just said is that the inner self is inherently one (in this sense I am similar to the dichotomist). But we are able to logically divide this inner self through biblical understanding into two parts (spirit and soul) and distinguish powers, that is functions, of each based on scripture. In this sense I am similar to a Trichotomist).

I don't agree with this understanding of the Genesis formula of Adam's creation. This is a common error, imo. Many contend that Genesis 2:7 is a formula of A+B=C. As an example of this, water + sugar = sugar water. The formula in Genesis 2:7 is not a demonstration that mankind is like sugar water.

The formula in Genesis 2:7 is ... A+B+C=D: (A) “dust” plus (B) “breath” plus (C) the “creative act” equals (D) a “new element”. So it's like the formula for a new element not a formula for sugar water.

The formula in Gen 2:7 is likened unto the creation of a new element, like taking two adams (dust and spirit) and through the process of combining them (creative act) a new element “becomes” or “emerges”. This new element that emerges still retains some of the characteristics of the two ingredients, but it is not simply two ingredients put together like sugar water. They, the previous ingredients, are now logical components of a whole (in oneness) that is something new, a new element, in which its previous ingredients can be logically divided and understood but not easily distinguishable as separate. Just like a new element and its neutrons, electrons and protons.

So what we see in Genesis 2:7 is separate elements of (1) dust [which is otherness from God], (2) breath [which is spirit and life from God], and something 'becoming' out of the creative process that is called a (3) soul. The 'soul' emerges from the creative process of dust and breath (spirit). Now we have an emerged 'soul' that has 'become'. The dust, or body, is still there. The breath, or spirit of life, is still there. Now we have three logical components but only one whole.

I would address your other points but would probably be getting to far off the OP.


Peace to you brother.

Thanks for offering what you have on this. Glad we agree in part!

 

[JesusFan]

A child of God is resurrected. A child of Satan is delivered

Rev 20: . 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

yes, as the lost shall be eternally in the lake of Fire

Adam and God were not at first in the relationship Adam enjoyed with God in the Garden.

Obviously Adam and God were not in unison (as evidenced by Adam's disobedience). Adam was created natural man, flesh. God is Spirit.

It is not Calvinistic, but I understand why it could sound that way. I believe that Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and that God knew what would occur before He took Adam and put him in the Garden.

The difference is I do not believe God decreed the Fall. But I do belueve God is "all knowing" and that He has a plan for His creation.

Yes, Adam was created "upright". Adam was not created already having sinned. Adam chose to sin.

Here is where you sound just a little Calvinistic ;-). I believe that Adam was created with free will and I belueve we also have free will. Just like Adam we freely choose the desires of the flesh (obviously, because just like Adam we are "natural man" and need to be "born of the Spirit" as "flesh begats flesh" and "Spirit begats spirit".

None after Adam save for Jesus Himself had any more a "full free will" as Adam was originally created with

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Adam and God were not at first in the relationship Adam enjoyed with God in the Garden.

I did not ask this Jon, I asked if they were in a relationship the moment God created him, What sperated the two when God created adam if they were not united?

Obviously Adam and God were not in unison (as evidenced by Adam's disobedience). Adam was created natural man, flesh. God is Spirit.

They lost unity when adam sinned. yes..

It is not Calvinistic, but I understand why it could sound that way. I believe that Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and that God knew what would occur before He took Adam and put him in the Garden.

Yes.

The difference is I do not believe God decreed the Fall. But I do belueve God is "all knowing" and that He has a plan for His creation.

Yes. so as God said, he passed over the sins previously committed.

Based on what?

Yes, Adam was created "upright". Adam was not created already having sinned. Adam chose to sin.

yes

Here is where you sound just a little Calvinistic ;-). I believe that Adam was created with free will and I belueve we also have free will.

As do I. I do not see why you would think otherwise.

Just like Adam we freely choose the desires of the flesh (obviously, because just like Adam we are "natural man" and need to be "born of the Spirit" as "flesh begats flesh" and "Spirit begats spirit".

Yes. But the nature to sin did not come until after the fall.

 

[Van]

LOL, you're picking a fight, Brother!

You know I disagree with the soul and spirit being literally destroyed in Hell.

Let's don't push it, Van. I would rather get along with you.

How are we going to get along, unless you stop posting falsehoods. My me remaining silent as you promote false teachings in my opinion?

 

[JonC]

I did not ask this Jon, I asked if they were in a relationship the moment God created him, What sperated the two when God created adam if they were not united?

They lost unity when adam sinned. yes..

Yes.

Yes. so as God said, he passed over the sins previously committed.

Based on what?

yes

As do I. I do not see why you would think otherwise.

Yes. But the nature to sin did not come until after the fall.

Yes. All men are in a relationship with God. Adam was as well (he was created as "natural man").

The issue is the type of relationship. We will enjoy a relationship in "God's presence". God will dwell once again with man as God did in the Garden.

The Bible tells is God passed over sins previously committed (prior to the Promise being fulfilled) based on the Promise being fulfilled.

He forgives sins based on "repentance", "a new heart", "turning from evil", "turning to God", etc. This is a spiritual birth ("born of the Spirit", "made a new creation in Christ").

 

[Van]

Yes, you are the only one that has is right. Others have a part of it right, but are thrown off by the wording from the OP.
The OP. and Others deny the creation account, and the full effects of the fall. Until that is dealt with, no progress can be made. Van in his first post was getting close to the truth, but by his other posts, he went back to his obsession with attacking Calvinism and drifted from his first post.

a "spiritually dead" human spirit still animates our human bodies, giving it life. So "spiritually dead" or "dead in our sins" does not mean unable to perform as the "spirit/soul" of our human body. The fiction that being spiritually dead means spiritually inert has absolutely no support in scripture, it is a Calvinist canard.

We definitely agree, while spiritually dead, a lost person can hope for eternal life, such as the "Rich Young Ruler" and many seek the narrow door that leads to life, Luke 13:24.

We disagree that the human spirit, as God can destroy the human "soul/spirit" in Gehenna, so it can "actually die."

at conception, natural man, lost people, as made sinners, are made in a spiritually separated state, just as if they had sinned. This state is not because they had sinned, but because of the consequence of Adam's sin, Romans 5:19.
Adam did not die spiritually because He was cast out of the garden, that physical action simply illustrates the spiritual separation caused by Adam's sin. Isaiah 59:2 Adam and Eve were both spiritually "together with God" until "their eyes were opened." Genesis 3:5-7 Adam and Eve were both created in a spiritually alive state, and they both, uniquely, spiritually died after being spiritually alive.
And yes, we agree, once a person is transferred spiritually into Christ and undergoes the washing of regeneration, the result is they are made spiritually alive together with Christ. The consequence of their sin is removed, the washing, so there is no cause for spiritual separation, and therefore they are "made alive (spiritually regenerated) together with Christ."

Notice that referring to Luke 13:24 where natural people, unregenerate, seek God searching for the narrow door proves spiritually dead people can seek God, is an attack rather than a defense from scripture.

All humans will be physically resurrected to live forever in either heaven or Lake of Fire

Bonkers delight! God can destroy the human "soul/spirit" in Gehenna, the second death.

Matthew 10:28 NASB
“And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Notice "Kill" and "Destroy" are used to describe what eventually might happen in the lake of fire. Ditto for "destroy" and "second death."

 

[JesusFan]

Bonkers delight! God can destroy the human "soul/spirit" in Gehenna, the second death.

Matthew 10:28 NASB
“And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Notice "Kill" and "Destroy" are used to describe what eventually might happen in the lake of fire. Ditto for "destroy" and "second death."

The term olethros (ὄλεθρος) refers to destruction, ruin, or utter devastation, most notably as found in the Bible's description of eternal destruction from God's presence as a punishment for the ungodly. This is not a state of annihilation or non-existence, but a perpetual state of irreversible loss and separation from God, representing the opposite of eternal life.

Yes. All men are in a relationship with God. Adam was as well (he was created as "natural man").

The issue is the type of relationship. We will enjoy a relationship in "God's presence". God will dwell once again with man as God did in the Garden.

The Bible tells is God passed over sins previously committed (prior to the Promise being fulfilled) based on the Promise being fulfilled.

He forgives sins based on "repentance", "a new heart", "turning from evil", "turning to God", etc. This is a spiritual birth ("born of the Spirit", "made a new creation in Christ").

Adam was in a right relationship with God when created, had spiritual life, and when he sinned, that aspect of Him died away

I know what you believe. You do not add to the conversation by restating what you believe. You need Scrioture, mot your opinion.

By Scripture what I mean is something like Paul's words you reject.

Adam did not need the messiah until after he fell, had no broken relationship with God, correct?

To be God's presence (like in the Garden), Adam did need Christ as evidenced by the fact Adam sinned. Paul makes this fairly clear when he notes that "Adam was made a living soul", "natural man", and contrasts this eith "spiritual man".

Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Even Adam needed to be "born of the Spirit".

Had Adam been "born of the Spirit", had "a mind set on the Spirit" then Afam would not have sinned ("a mind set on the flesh is death").

No, as clearly Adam was in a right relationship with God until he fell and sinned in the fall, and in such a state of innocence, needed no savior for his sins util he actually sinned