Dying Spiritually

[Van]

The term olethros (ὄλεθρος) refers to destruction, ruin, or utter devastation, most notably as found in the Bible's description of eternal destruction from God's presence as a punishment for the ungodly. This is not a state of annihilation or non-existence, but a perpetual state of irreversible loss and separation from God, representing the opposite of eternal life.

This appears to be a copy and paste denial of the contextual word meaning. What does kill mean but the end of life. What does death mean but the end of life. No Siree Bob, destroy means never destroyed.

Note that many times the Greek word is translated as kill. Less than two years after the birth of Jesus, was Herod trying to destroy the baby or kill the baby? When the demon threw the boy into the water or fire, was the demon trying to cause torment to him or to kill him?

 

[JonC]

its called spiritual seperation, Its called spiritual death.

In adam ALL DIE

In Christ (through the cross) shall all be made alive

All I have to do is prove before Adam and Eve sinned that they had not sinned. at even any time. to know they were in right standing with God..

your passage in cor 15 does not help you. Your taking it out of context for our discussion.

As for the rest

Adam was incorruptabe before he sinned
Adam, if he did not sin, would never have died
Adam did not need to be born of the spirit before he sinned
All men are created natural and spiritual. The spirit part of man is however separated from God (dead)


After they sinned, they lost this right standing, and incurred a debt which had to be paid before the relationship can be restored.

There is no relationship between the lost and God.. That's why the lost can do not good. that's why there is none righteous no not one... Thats why they do not seek God. Gods seeks them, then based on the cross. forces them to chose to continue in unbelief or chose to repent.

I agree that man is spiritually separated from God as man is "natural" and not "spiritual" (1 Cor 15).

But how, if Adam was created "natural man" and not "spiritual man" did Adam die spiritually?

I also agree that "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive".

I disagree that there is no relationship between God and the lost. The reason I disagree is Scripture actually describes this relationship (Romans 8; Luke 19; Col 1; John 1).

You are talking about a specific relationship that natural man cannot have with God, but that spiritual man has. That said, there is a relationship between the lost and God. It is just not the same relationship.

Now....about the rest....

What verse says that Adam was created incorruptabe?

Now....THINK about what you just claimed. You said that Adam was created incorruptabe. Scripture says Adam was not only corruptabe but he was corrupted. Both cannot be correct.


Scripture does not say that Adam would not die if he did not sin. God did not tell Adam "if you refrain from sin you will not die". God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he would certainly die.

Since Adam did sin and was created "natural" as opposed to "spiritual", how do you know Adam did not need to be "born of the Spirit"?


I gave you a passage that stated Adam was created natural and not spiritual, and that the natural came first and then the spiritual.

What verse are you saying says men are created natural and spiritual?

Since Scripture specifically states that Adam was created natural and NOT spiritual, how did the rest of us become natural and spiritual?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree that man is spiritually separated from God as man is "natural" and not "spiritual" (1 Cor 15).

But how, if Adam was created "natural man" and not "spiritual man" did Adam die spiritually?

I also agree that "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive".

I disagree that there is no relationship between God and the lost. The reason I disagree is Scripture actually describes this relationship (Romans 8; Luke 19; Col 1; John 1).

You are talking about a specific relationship that natural man cannot have with God, but that spiritual man has. That said, there is a relationship between the lost and God. It is just not the same relationship.

Now....about the rest....

What verse says that Adam was created incorruptabe?

Now....THINK about what you just claimed. You said that Adam was created incorruptabe. Scripture says Adam was not only corruptabe but he was corrupted. Both cannot be correct.


Scripture does not say that Adam would not die if he did not sin. God did not tell Adam "if you refrain from sin you will not die". God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he would certainly die.

Since Adam did sin and was created "natural" as opposed to "spiritual", how do you know Adam did not need to be "born of the Spirit"?


I gave you a passage that stated Adam was created natural and not spiritual, and that the natural came first and then the spiritual.

What verse are you saying says men are created natural and spiritual?

Since Scripture specifically states that Adam was created natural and NIT spiritual, how did the rest of is become natural and spiritual?

ok there is no need to go on, we will just never see eye to eye.

Again, I do not know where you came up with this. I have never heard what you are saying in my life. Is this new age thinking or what denomination does this come from? Just asking. so I can try to study to see where its roots are

 

[JesusFan]

The bottom line is we can speculate but what we know is:

1. Adam was created "natural" as opposed to "spiritual" (1 Cor 15)
2. Adam had a "mind set on the flesh" as opposed to a "mind set on the Spirit" (Romans 8)
3. Spiritual life is incorriptable (1 Peter 1)
4. Spiritual life is everlasting (John 3)
5. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3)



The task is not to speculate but to prove that Adam

1. had a life that was incorriptable.
2. had a life that was everlasting.
3. was born of the Spirit
4. was created both natural man and spiritual man
5. had a mind set on the Spirit


The reason the lost are condemned is their relationship with God. Scripture tells us that natural man cannot please God, that the lost are at enmity with God. By definition this is a relationship.

Now...it is not a relationship we want or have now....but it is a relationship. God is the God of the saved abd the lost. The lost deny Him, but that does not change who He is. He is Lord over all creation and even the lost owe their existence to Him.

Adam was created with a sinless human nature, and with such, has spiritual intimacy with God, and no need to have a mediator between Him and God, no need for a savipr until he sinned and fell

 

[JonC]

ok there is no need to go on, we will just never see eye to eye.

Again, I do not know where you came up with this. I have never heard what you are saying in my life. Is this new age thinking or what denomination does this come from? Just asking. so I can try to study to see where its roots are

No....this is exactly why we need to go on.

The trend here is for people to say "let's agree to disagree" and shut down a discussion rather than going to the Bible and separating theory from God's Word and then discussing differences in interpretation.

That was the reason I asked if we could agree that all doctrine has to be tested against God's Word, and if it is mot there it's just theory.


I gave you a verse that stated that Adam was created natural rather than spiritual, tgat the natural came first and then the spiritual, and associated the spiritual with Christ.

You said that Adam was created natural and spiritual.

Since your post directly contradicts the passage I provided we need to look at your passage (the passage that states God created Adam natural and spiritual) and reconcile the two passages.

We do not have to agree, but let's at least disagree biblically.

1. JonC offered a passage stating that Adam was created natural as opposed to spiritual.

2. @Eternally Grateful objected and offered ____________ (fill in the blank with a passage stating that Adam was created natural and spiritual).


Let's discuss Scripture....iron sharpening iron....and only then agree to disagree.

 

[JonC]

Adam was created with a sinless human nature, and with such, has spiritual intimacy with God, and no need to have a mediator between Him and God, no need for a savipr until he sinned and fell

I say the same to you.

I offered Scripture.

You said "no" and gave me a theory.

Let's discuss God's Word rather than man's theories.

 

[JesusFan]

I say the same to you.

I offered Scripture.

You said "no" and gave me a theory.

Let's discuss God's Word rather than man's theories.

God announced the proto Gospel after the Fall, and Adam no longer had that special connection/state with God after he sinned, so something actually changed before and after, not speculation, biblical truth

 

[JonC]

Again, I do not know where you came up with this. I have never heard what you are saying in my life. Is this new age thinking or what denomination does this come from? Just asking. so I can try to study to see where its roots are

Sorry....I should have answered this.

I came up with this through reading the Bible. But you can read others who held this position historically as well (I made very sure my understanding was not new or a sole view).

It is simply a non-Calvinistic belief.

The Hebrew interpretation was that God told Adam if he ate of the fruit "dying you shall die". It was always interpreted as a physical death even through the Early Church period. You can read the writings of the Early Church for more info.

The Catholic Church introduced the idea that Adam died spiritually. Augustine interpreted Gen 2:17 to be a loss of immortality. The Catholic doctrine of Original Sin depends of Augustine's mistake (a mistranslation in the Latin of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ). You can read about this as well.

Why lean on traditions when we have God's Word. We can disagree but let our disagree be on actual interpretations of Scripture.

 

[JonC]

God announced the proto Gospel after the Fall, and Adam no longer had that special connection/state with God after he sinned, so something actually changed before and after, not speculation, biblical truth

Good. Now post that announcement that God made (God's Word...actual Scripture) where He states that Adam was created natural and spiritual but died spiritually.

Let's compare this ti where Paul states the opposite.

It is IMPORTANT because what you are saying is the opposite of Pauline theology (the opposite of what Oaul wrote) so we need to work through it.

But we cannot if you continue to refuse to go to God's Word.