Dying Spiritually

[JonC]

Adam was in a right relationship with God when created, had spiritual life, and when he sinned, that aspect of Him died away

I know what you believe. You do not add to the conversation by restating what you believe. You need Scrioture, mot your opinion.

By Scripture what I mean is something like Paul's words you reject.

Adam did not need the messiah until after he fell, had no broken relationship with God, correct?

To be God's presence (like in the Garden), Adam did need Christ as evidenced by the fact Adam sinned. Paul makes this fairly clear when he notes that "Adam was made a living soul", "natural man", and contrasts this eith "spiritual man".

Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Even Adam needed to be "born of the Spirit".

Had Adam been "born of the Spirit", had "a mind set on the Spirit" then Afam would not have sinned ("a mind set on the flesh is death").

No, as clearly Adam was in a right relationship with God until he fell and sinned in the fall, and in such a state of innocence, needed no savior for his sins util he actually sinned

Adam was in a right relationship before he sinned.

Have you ever read Ezekiel 28?

You had the seal of perfection. . . You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: . . . You were the anointed cherub who covers . . . You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways om the day you were created ntil unrighteousness was found in you. . . . And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profaneFrom the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,

You have been led astray by your philosophy and theories. I encourage you to return to G9d and His Word.

There are just too many passages you deny to ignore the problem. We are not talking about differences in interoretation but outright denial of Scripture.

Why reject the Pauline epistles (specifically 2 Corinthians)? Do you not believe that they are Scripture?


Adam needed a Savior because he needed to be "born of the Spirit" abd "made into the image of Christ" in order to be "n the presence of God".

How do we know this? Because Adam sinned.

You can play the "but what 8f Adam did not sin" game all day. That is theory. Adam DID sin, which proved that he needed to be "of the Spirit" rather than "of the flesh".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes. All men are in a relationship with God. Adam was as well (he was created as "natural man").

Um no. all men are not in a relationship with God. we are not in a relationship until we are born again

The issue is the type of relationship. We will enjoy a relationship in "God's presence". God will dwell once again with man as God did in the Garden.

The Bible tells is God passed over sins previously committed (prior to the Promise being fulfilled) based on the Promise being fulfilled.

Yes, and what was the promise that was fulfilled? was it not the cross?

He forgives sins based on "repentance", "a new heart", "turning from evil", "turning to God", etc. This is a spiritual birth ("born of the Spirit", "made a new creation in Christ").

Yes, based on repentance. But not because we turned. But because we had faith.

He who believes will never perish.. They are not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already

what seperates the two is the cross (John 3)

 

[JonC]

Um no. all men are not in a relationship with God. we are not in a relationship until we are born again

Yes, and what was the promise that was fulfilled? was it not the cross?



Yes, based on repentance. But not because we turned. But because we had faith.

He who believes will never perish.. They are not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already

what seperates the two is the cross (John 3)

This is simply not true. The lost ARE in a relationship with God. He is their Creator. He is STILL their Lord. They are condemned because of this relationship.

My point is that Adam was not created in the relationship he had with God in the Garden. He was created and then placed in the Garden where God walked among man and then cast out to where he was created.

Yes. We are forgiven based on reoentance, on "a new heart", and yes, this is what God does - We are "born of the Spirit" and not longer "natural man" (as Paul says Adam was when created) but "spiritual man" due to the work of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is simply not true. The lost ARE in a relationship with God. He is their Creator.

No they are not. if they were, they would not be dead and need to be born again.

He is STILL their Lord. They are condemned because of this relationship.

No they are condemned because of unbelief (John 3)

My point is that Adam was not created in the relationship he had with God in the Garden.

He most certainly was

He was created and then placed in the Garden where God walked among man and then cast out to where he was created.

God was with him the moment he was created. I do not know where you are getting your thinking from..

Yes. We are forgiven based on reoentance, on "a new heart", and yes, this is what God does - We are "born of the Spirit" and not longer "natural man" (as Paul says Adam was when created) but "spiritual man" due to the work of God.

Based on redemption which was paid by the blood of the cross.

The cross is the means of forgiveness. without the cross. we would all be doomed

 

[Zaatar71]

No, as clearly Adam was in a right relationship with God until he fell and sinned in the fall, and in such a state of innocence, needed no savior for his sins util he actually sinned

Correct....some try and blur the line...saying Adam was created A natural man. They Go to Paul speaking of resurrection of the body in first Cor.15.
They do not go to Paul when Paul says the natural man cannot believe the things of the Spirit of God however,
lol

 

[Zaatar71]

No they are not. if they were, they would not be dead and need to be born again.
God was with him the moment he was created. I do not know where you are getting your thinking from..

No one else knows either!

 

[JonC]

No they are not. if they were, they would not be dead and need to be born again.



No they are condemned because of unbelief (John 3)

He most certainly was

God was with him the moment he was created. I do not know where you are getting your thinking from..

Based on redemption which was paid by the blood of the cross.

The cross is the means of forgiveness. without the cross. we would all be doomed

The bottom line is we can speculate but what we know is:

1. Adam was created "natural" as opposed to "spiritual" (1 Cor 15)
2. Adam had a "mind set on the flesh" as opposed to a "mind set on the Spirit" (Romans 8)
3. Spiritual life is incorriptable (1 Peter 1)
4. Spiritual life is everlasting (John 3)
5. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3)



The task is not to speculate but to prove that Adam

1. had a life that was incorriptable.
2. had a life that was everlasting.
3. was born of the Spirit
4. was created both natural man and spiritual man
5. had a mind set on the Spirit


The reason the lost are condemned is their relationship with God. Scripture tells us that natural man cannot please God, that the lost are at enmity with God. By definition this is a relationship.

Now...it is not a relationship we want or have now....but it is a relationship. God is the God of the saved abd the lost. The lost deny Him, but that does not change who He is. He is Lord over all creation and even the lost owe their existence to Him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The bottom line is we can speculate but what we know is:

1. Adam was created "natural" as opposed to "spiritual" (1 Cor 15)
2. Adam had a "mind set on the flesh" as opposed to a "mind set on the Spirit" (Romans 8)
3. Spiritual life is incorriptable (1 Peter 1)
4. Spiritual life is everlasting (John 3)
5. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3)



The task is not to speculate but to prove that Adam

1. had a life that was incorriptable.
2. had a life that was everlasting.
3. was born of the Spirit
4. was created both natural man and spiritual man
5. had a mind set on the Spirit


The reason the lost are condemned is their relationship with God. Scripture tells us that natural man cannot please God, that the lost are at enmity with God. By definition this is a relationship.

Niw...it is not a relationship we want or have now....but it is a relationship.

its called spiritual seperation, Its called spiritual death.

In adam ALL DIE

In Christ (through the cross) shall all be made alive

All I have to do is prove before Adam and Eve sinned that they had not sinned. at even any time. to know they were in right standing with God..

your passage in cor 15 does not help you. Your taking it out of context for our discussion.

As for the rest

Adam was incorruptabe before he sinned
Adam, if he did not sin, would never have died
Adam did not need to be born of the spirit before he sinned
All men are created natural and spiritual. The spirit part of man is however separated from God (dead)


After they sinned, they lost this right standing, and incurred a debt which had to be paid before the relationship can be restored.

There is no relationship between the lost and God.. That's why the lost can do not good. that's why there is none righteous no not one... Thats why they do not seek God. Gods seeks them, then based on the cross. forces them to chose to continue in unbelief or chose to repent.

 

[Van]

The term olethros (ὄλεθρος) refers to destruction, ruin, or utter devastation, most notably as found in the Bible's description of eternal destruction from God's presence as a punishment for the ungodly. This is not a state of annihilation or non-existence, but a perpetual state of irreversible loss and separation from God, representing the opposite of eternal life.

This appears to be a copy and paste denial of the contextual word meaning. What does kill mean but the end of life. What does death mean but the end of life. No Siree Bob, destroy means never destroyed.

Note that many times the Greek word is translated as kill. Less than two years after the birth of Jesus, was Herod trying to destroy the baby or kill the baby? When the demon threw the boy into the water or fire, was the demon trying to cause torment to him or to kill him?

 

[JonC]

its called spiritual seperation, Its called spiritual death.

In adam ALL DIE

In Christ (through the cross) shall all be made alive

All I have to do is prove before Adam and Eve sinned that they had not sinned. at even any time. to know they were in right standing with God..

your passage in cor 15 does not help you. Your taking it out of context for our discussion.

As for the rest

Adam was incorruptabe before he sinned
Adam, if he did not sin, would never have died
Adam did not need to be born of the spirit before he sinned
All men are created natural and spiritual. The spirit part of man is however separated from God (dead)


After they sinned, they lost this right standing, and incurred a debt which had to be paid before the relationship can be restored.

There is no relationship between the lost and God.. That's why the lost can do not good. that's why there is none righteous no not one... Thats why they do not seek God. Gods seeks them, then based on the cross. forces them to chose to continue in unbelief or chose to repent.

I agree that man is spiritually separated from God as man is "natural" and not "spiritual" (1 Cor 15).

But how, if Adam was created "natural man" and not "spiritual man" did Adam die spiritually?

I also agree that "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive".

I disagree that there is no relationship between God and the lost. The reason I disagree is Scripture actually describes this relationship (Romans 8; Luke 19; Col 1; John 1).

You are talking about a specific relationship that natural man cannot have with God, but that spiritual man has. That said, there is a relationship between the lost and God. It is just not the same relationship.

Now....about the rest....

What verse says that Adam was created incorruptabe?

Now....THINK about what you just claimed. You said that Adam was created incorruptabe. Scripture says Adam was not only corruptabe but he was corrupted. Both cannot be correct.


Scripture does not say that Adam would not die if he did not sin. God did not tell Adam "if you refrain from sin you will not die". God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he would certainly die.

Since Adam did sin and was created "natural" as opposed to "spiritual", how do you know Adam did not need to be "born of the Spirit"?


I gave you a passage that stated Adam was created natural and not spiritual, and that the natural came first and then the spiritual.

What verse are you saying says men are created natural and spiritual?

Since Scripture specifically states that Adam was created natural and NOT spiritual, how did the rest of us become natural and spiritual?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree that man is spiritually separated from God as man is "natural" and not "spiritual" (1 Cor 15).

But how, if Adam was created "natural man" and not "spiritual man" did Adam die spiritually?

I also agree that "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive".

I disagree that there is no relationship between God and the lost. The reason I disagree is Scripture actually describes this relationship (Romans 8; Luke 19; Col 1; John 1).

You are talking about a specific relationship that natural man cannot have with God, but that spiritual man has. That said, there is a relationship between the lost and God. It is just not the same relationship.

Now....about the rest....

What verse says that Adam was created incorruptabe?

Now....THINK about what you just claimed. You said that Adam was created incorruptabe. Scripture says Adam was not only corruptabe but he was corrupted. Both cannot be correct.


Scripture does not say that Adam would not die if he did not sin. God did not tell Adam "if you refrain from sin you will not die". God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he would certainly die.

Since Adam did sin and was created "natural" as opposed to "spiritual", how do you know Adam did not need to be "born of the Spirit"?


I gave you a passage that stated Adam was created natural and not spiritual, and that the natural came first and then the spiritual.

What verse are you saying says men are created natural and spiritual?

Since Scripture specifically states that Adam was created natural and NIT spiritual, how did the rest of is become natural and spiritual?

ok there is no need to go on, we will just never see eye to eye.

Again, I do not know where you came up with this. I have never heard what you are saying in my life. Is this new age thinking or what denomination does this come from? Just asking. so I can try to study to see where its roots are

 

[JesusFan]

The bottom line is we can speculate but what we know is:

1. Adam was created "natural" as opposed to "spiritual" (1 Cor 15)
2. Adam had a "mind set on the flesh" as opposed to a "mind set on the Spirit" (Romans 8)
3. Spiritual life is incorriptable (1 Peter 1)
4. Spiritual life is everlasting (John 3)
5. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3)



The task is not to speculate but to prove that Adam

1. had a life that was incorriptable.
2. had a life that was everlasting.
3. was born of the Spirit
4. was created both natural man and spiritual man
5. had a mind set on the Spirit


The reason the lost are condemned is their relationship with God. Scripture tells us that natural man cannot please God, that the lost are at enmity with God. By definition this is a relationship.

Now...it is not a relationship we want or have now....but it is a relationship. God is the God of the saved abd the lost. The lost deny Him, but that does not change who He is. He is Lord over all creation and even the lost owe their existence to Him.

Adam was created with a sinless human nature, and with such, has spiritual intimacy with God, and no need to have a mediator between Him and God, no need for a savipr until he sinned and fell

I say the same to you.

I offered Scripture.

You said "no" and gave me a theory.

Let's discuss God's Word rather than man's theories.

God announced the proto Gospel after the Fall, and Adam no longer had that special connection/state with God after he sinned, so something actually changed before and after, not speculation, biblical truth

 

[JonC]

ok there is no need to go on, we will just never see eye to eye.

Again, I do not know where you came up with this. I have never heard what you are saying in my life. Is this new age thinking or what denomination does this come from? Just asking. so I can try to study to see where its roots are

No....this is exactly why we need to go on.

The trend here is for people to say "let's agree to disagree" and shut down a discussion rather than going to the Bible and separating theory from God's Word and then discussing differences in interpretation.

That was the reason I asked if we could agree that all doctrine has to be tested against God's Word, and if it is mot there it's just theory.


I gave you a verse that stated that Adam was created natural rather than spiritual, tgat the natural came first and then the spiritual, and associated the spiritual with Christ.

You said that Adam was created natural and spiritual.

Since your post directly contradicts the passage I provided we need to look at your passage (the passage that states God created Adam natural and spiritual) and reconcile the two passages.

We do not have to agree, but let's at least disagree biblically.

1. JonC offered a passage stating that Adam was created natural as opposed to spiritual.

2. @Eternally Grateful objected and offered ____________ (fill in the blank with a passage stating that Adam was created natural and spiritual).


Let's discuss Scripture....iron sharpening iron....and only then agree to disagree.

 

[JonC]

Adam was created with a sinless human nature, and with such, has spiritual intimacy with God, and no need to have a mediator between Him and God, no need for a savipr until he sinned and fell

I say the same to you.

I offered Scripture.

You said "no" and gave me a theory.

Let's discuss God's Word rather than man's theories.

 

[JonC]

Again, I do not know where you came up with this. I have never heard what you are saying in my life. Is this new age thinking or what denomination does this come from? Just asking. so I can try to study to see where its roots are

Sorry....I should have answered this.

I came up with this through reading the Bible. But you can read others who held this position historically as well (I made very sure my understanding was not new or a sole view).

It is simply a non-Calvinistic belief.

The Hebrew interpretation was that God told Adam if he ate of the fruit "dying you shall die". It was always interpreted as a physical death even through the Early Church period. You can read the writings of the Early Church for more info.

The Catholic Church introduced the idea that Adam died spiritually. Augustine interpreted Gen 2:17 to be a loss of immortality. The Catholic doctrine of Original Sin depends of Augustine's mistake (a mistranslation in the Latin of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ). You can read about this as well.

Why lean on traditions when we have God's Word. We can disagree but let our disagree be on actual interpretations of Scripture.

 

[JonC]

God announced the proto Gospel after the Fall, and Adam no longer had that special connection/state with God after he sinned, so something actually changed before and after, not speculation, biblical truth

Good. Now post that announcement that God made (God's Word...actual Scripture) where He states that Adam was created natural and spiritual but died spiritually.

Let's compare this ti where Paul states the opposite.

It is IMPORTANT because what you are saying is the opposite of Pauline theology (the opposite of what Oaul wrote) so we need to work through it.

But we cannot if you continue to refuse to go to God's Word.

 

[Charlie24]

How are we going to get along, unless you stop posting falsehoods. My me remaining silent as you promote false teachings in my opinion?

I don't feel like beating my head against a brick wall today, Van.

 

[JonC]

I don't feel like beating my head against a brick wall today, Van.

Pick a soft wall.

 

[Charlie24]

Pick a soft wall.

Jon, that will take some of that serious Jethro Bodine syphering.

I'm not sure I can figure it out.

 

[David Lamb]

Adam and God were not at first in the relationship Adam enjoyed with God in the Garden.

Yet when God had finished creating, He described everything He had made, including man, as "very good." So I don't understand how you can say that Adam and God were not at first in the relationship they had in the Garden. I may well have misunderstood something in your post. If so, I apologise.