Dying Spiritually

[Eternally Grateful]

No....this is exactly why we need to go on.

The trend here is for people to say "let's agree to disagree" and shut down a discussion rather than going to the Bible and separating theory from God's Word and then discussing differences in interpretation.

I did not say I would agree to disagree.

What I did was say we should probably stop, because we are not going to get anywhere.

What you are saying makes no sense to me. You have tried numerous times to explain it. and its like we just go in circles. there is a time for conversation to end. because if not, it may get out of hand.

That was the reason I asked if we could agree that all doctrine has to be tested against God's Word, and if it is mot there it's just theory.

Yes. But you keep bringing up passages you think supports what your saying, and I still do not see it.

Again, the word trinity is not in the bible. Yet I believe we both agree. the trinity doctrine is real..

I gave you a verse that stated that Adam was created natural rather than spiritual, tgat the natural came first and then the spiritual, and associated the spiritual with Christ.

He was created natural. he was created a human.

Christ was a spirit. that entered a human Body.

But Adam was created perfect. without sin, In perfect relationship with God.

He did not need saved
He did not need the Holy Spirit
He did not need born again
He did not need to have his relationship restored with God
for this reason, He would be classified as being spiritually alive. By his own merit.

The moment he sinned

He needed saved
He needed the HS
He needed to be born again
He needed to have his relationship restored with God
For this reason. He would be classified as spiritually dead, By his own merit.

this is why I said this passage does not sway me from what I believe. because it does not get to the root issue between us.

You said that Adam was created natural and spiritual.

No. I said he was created spiritually alive, a term used by many Christians to denote the fact that there was no barrier between Adam and God at that time. they were in perfect unity, in a Perfect relationship not torn apart by sin. They had a perfect father/son relationship.

Since your post directly contradicts the passage I provided we need to look at your passage (the passage that states God created Adam natural and spiritual) and reconcile the two passages.

Thats good you believe this. But it does not in my view

We do not have to agree, but let's at least disagree biblically.

1. JonC offered a passage stating that Adam was created natural as opposed to spiritual.

2. @Eternally Grateful objected and offered ____________ (fill in the blank with a passage stating that Adam was created natural and spiritual).


Let's discuss Scripture....iron sharpening iron....and only then agree to disagree.

I want to discuss the truth about the fact that we are spiritually separated from God because of sin, and that being in Adam makes us spiritually dead.. and if we want to have life. we have to become in Christ. And the only way this is even possible. is because of the cross.

You want to base one small verse and say that proves me wrong.

Its much like people using acts 2: 38 to say we must be baptized in water to receive remission of sin. and not wanting to discuss any more of the word.

Or using James 2 to prove we are saved by works. while ignoring Romans 4 which says otherwise.

I have shown you many passages which show we were redeemed by the blood. We were dead and had to be made alive,

I have also tried to explain the term spiritual death the way I understand it. In hopes you can see part of the issue is that we do not see spiritual death in the same way or interpret it the same (which is why your verse does not work)

 

[JonC]

I did not say I would agree to disagree.

What I did was say we should probably stop, because we are not going to get anywhere.

What you are saying makes no sense to me. You have tried numerous times to explain it. and its like we just go in circles. there is a time for conversation to end. because if not, it may get out of hand.

Yes. But you keep bringing up passages you think supports what your saying, and I still do not see it.

Again, the word trinity is not in the bible. Yet I believe we both agree. the trinity doctrine is real..

He was created natural. he was created a human.

Christ was a spirit. that entered a human Body.

But Adam was created perfect. without sin, In perfect relationship with God.

He did not need saved
He did not need the Holy Spirit
He did not need born again
He did not need to have his relationship restored with God
for this reason, He would be classified as being spiritually alive. By his own merit.

The moment he sinned

He needed saved
He needed the HS
He needed to be born again
He needed to have his relationship restored with God
For this reason. He would be classified as spiritually dead, By his own merit.

this is why I said this passage does not sway me from what I believe. because it does not get to the root issue between us.



No. I said he was created spiritually alive, a term used by many Christians to denote the fact that there was no barrier between Adam and God at that time. they were in perfect unity, in a Perfect relationship not torn apart by sin. They had a perfect father/son relationship.

Thats good you believe this. But it does not in my view

I want to discuss the truth about the fact that we are spiritually separated from God because of sin, and that being in Adam makes us spiritually dead.. and if we want to have life. we have to become in Christ. And the only way this is even possible. is because of the cross.

You want to base one small verse and say that proves me wrong.

Its much like people using acts 2: 38 to say we must be baptized in water to receive remission of sin. and not wanting to discuss any more of the word.

Or using James 2 to prove we are saved by works. while ignoring Romans 4 which says otherwise.

I have shown you many passages which show we were redeemed by the blood. We were dead and had to be made alive,

I have also tried to explain the term spiritual death the way I understand it. In hopes you can see part of the issue is that we do not see spiritual death in the same way or interpret it the same (which is why your verse does not work)

No, I am not interested in proving you wrong.

I want to know the passages you used to come to your conclusions.

The reason is that I once shared your view, but I was a Calvinist at the time (I relied on that tradition rather than God's Word).

Your view is common and while newer than my position it is not a new view (it was developed during the 5th and 6th centuries within the Catholic Church). So we both hold very old views of Adam, but views that oppose one another.

I offered several passages (not just one) about why I believe as I do. This included the natural coming first, but also what the Bible said about life that is of the Spirit.

I am not claiming you are wrong and I am right. That would require investigation and I do not know the passages you are leaning on.

I agree that Adam was created "upright", and that before he sinned he did not sin.

Let's examine God's Word and leave both of our theories and understanding on the back burner for a moment.


What passages are you using to conclude Adam was created with spiritual life and then died spiritually?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sorry....I should have answered this.

I came up with this through reading the Bible. But you can read others who held this position historically as well (I made very sure my understanding was not new or a sole view).

It is simply a non-Calvinistic belief.

The Hebrew interpretation was that God told Adam if he ate of the fruit "dying you shall die". It was always interpreted as a physical death even through the Early Church period. You can read the writings of the Early Church for more info.

The Catholic Church introduced the idea that Adam died spiritually. Augustine interpreted Gen 2:17 to be a loss of immortality. The Catholic doctrine of Original Sin depends of Augustine's mistake (a mistranslation in the Latin of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ). You can read about this as well.

Why lean on traditions when we have God's Word. We can disagree but let our disagree be on actual interpretations of Scripture.

I get a red flag when I see us talk about ISMS. I do not think this is a calvinist or catholic issue. Lets stick to the word (As you say)


I feel When we are in the position we feel we have to fight Calvinism or Catholicism at all costs. we become blinded by that issue. and are unable to see not only what others are saying (I see this between us) and many times we are hindered by what we will see. I know. as I was tainted by my beliefs I was taught growing up. and was sure they were right. without even trying to test it. Until Someone finally Got me to open my eyes. We see it in a huge way with the OSAS argument as most people I see who fight it are fighting Calvinism, not eternal security

Now That I see this and thought about it. I have seen a few people say Adam did not die spiritual death (separation. lets try this when I say the word death, think separation. Physical death is the separation between the body and soul. Spiritual death is separation of the spirit between the soul and God),
Someone in another chat room just told me this. He is a CoC I believe, I am sure this is not you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good. Now post that announcement that God made (God's Word...actual Scripture) where He states that Adam was created natural and spiritual but died spiritually.

Post where God said he is a triune God.

this is why sometimes these discussion are frustrating.

 

[JonC]

Post where God said he is a triune God.

this is why sometimes these discussion are frustrating.

The Lord God is One (Deut 6)
I [Jesus] and the Father are One (Jn 10)
The Spirit of God moved (Gen 1), the Spirit which the Father will send in My name (Jn 14)
For in Him the fullness of the Godhead dwells (Col 2)
There are, of course, more.

This comes up a lot. I have been amazed how many believe God is a Triune God but think it just tradition foreign to Scripture.

It should not be frustrating. We both believe doctrine should be based on God's Word, so it should be very easy to provide passages in God's Word where our belief is formed.

It can only be frustrating if our beliefs are not actually based on God's Word.

What passages are you using to form the belief that Adam died spiritually?

 

[JonC]

I get a red flag when I see us talk about ISMS. I do not think this is a calvinist or catholic issue. Lets stick to the word (As you say)


I feel When we are in the position we feel we have to fight Calvinism or Catholicism at all costs. we become blinded by that issue. and are unable to see not only what others are saying (I see this between us) and many times we are hindered by what we will see. I know. as I was tainted by my beliefs I was taught growing up. and was sure they were right. without even trying to test it. Until Someone finally Got me to open my eyes. We see it in a huge way with the OSAS argument as most people I see who fight it are fighting Calvinism, not eternal security

Now That I see this and thought about it. I have seen a few people say Adam did not die spiritual death (separation. lets try this when I say the word death, think separation. Physical death is the separation between the body and soul. Spiritual death is separation of the spirit between the soul and God),
Someone in another chat room just told me this. He is a CoC I believe, I am sure this is not you

We do not have to fight ANY doctrine at all costs...unless it is not actually God's Word abd it replaces what is written. Then it still deoends on the doctrine.

If you read Church history you will find that the belief Adam died spiritually is relatively new (it is old, but centuries newer than the belief Gen 2 was speaking of a physical death). If you address in the pre-Resurrection Hebrew faith then your position is thousands of years newer.

That does not make you wrong. We have to go to God's Word, see if God said Adam died spiritually and read how God defines this life in the Spirit.

That is why I am asking you for the passages you used to form your belief.

If it is just tradition you adopted that is fine as well, but it is not something I would take seriously (certainly not something I would use to form a belief about other issues).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Lord God is One (Deut 6)
I [Jesus] and the Father are One (Jn 10)
The Spirit of God moved (Gen 1), the Spirit which the Father will send in My name (Jn 14)
For in Him the fullness of the Godhead dwells (Col 2)
There are, of course, more.

This comes up a lot. I have been amazed how many believe God is a Triune God but think it just tradition foreign to Scripture.

It should not be frustrating. We both believe doctrine should be based on God's Word, so it should be very easy to provide passages in God's Word where our belief is formed.

It can only be frustrating if our beliefs are not actually based on God's Word.

What passages are you using to form the belief that Adam died spiritually?

so you proved the trinity without the word trinity. thank you, we are 100% in agreement

I have showed you many passages I feel support my view. It would be the same.

Again.. this is the best analogy I can offer. I will repost..

EG said

He (Adam) was created natural. he was created a human.

Christ was a spirit. that entered a human Body.

But Adam was created perfect. without sin, In perfect relationship with God.

He did not need saved
He did not need the Holy Spirit
He did not need born again
He did not need to have his relationship restored with God
for this reason, He would be classified as being spiritually alive. By his own merit.

The moment he sinned

He needed saved
He needed the HS
He needed to be born again
He needed to have his relationship restored with God
For this reason. He would be classified as spiritually dead, By his own merit.

Again, Something happened between the first list, and second list. I do not know what you see this as or what you call it. But I see this as spiritual separation. or death. There was a barrier put between Adam and God. and that Barrier was sin

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We do not have to fight ANY doctrine at all costs...unless it is not actually God's Word abd it replaces what is written. Then it still deoends on the doctrine.

amen, we are again in 100% agreement

If you read Church history you will find that the belief Adam died spiritually is relatively new (it is old, but centuries newer than the belief Gen 2 was speaking of a physical death). If you address in the pre-Resurrection Hebrew faith then your position is thousands of years newer.

lets say this about church history,

It is written by men
It is not inpired
It is mostly catholic.

so I want to look to the word of God. not church history. It means nothing to me. The jews tried to use their history against Christ.. Christ used the word against them, and they crucified him for it

That does not make you wrong. We have to go to God's Word, see if God said Adam died spiritually and read how God defines this life in the Spirit.

That is why I am asking you for the passages you used to form your belief.

If it is just tradition you adopted that is fine as well, but it is not something I would take seriously (certainly not something I would use to form a belief about other issues).

Again, See above.

I care about what God says, not about what some man 500 years ago said..

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings JonC. Thank you for your witness on this board and the time you offer to God as your living sacrifice,

I notice that the title of the OP is Dying Spiritually. Further, you made this statement below in post #4.

I do believe that the idea of dying spiritually is a fallacy because it goes against everything the Bible says about life in the Spirit.

So I am taking it that you are taking the position that Adam (mankind) did not die spiritually right after the fall (whatever that might mean). Although I am curious about this topic, I have a question regarding something you wrote in your OP.

3. Spiritual life is incorruptible (1 Cor 15)

I can only guess, but it seems like you specifically are referring to 1 Corinthians 15:35-49. These verses are under the context of the resurrection or the resurrected body/life.

So my question is, what does text that refers to the end state of what some call 'the glorified man' have to do with the state of what I'll simply call Adam's innocence? In other words, is it a proper assumption to think that the state of Adam's beginning should be equated (as in seen as equal) to the state of mankind's intended end as glorified man?

It seems pretty obvious to me that Adam's spiritual state and God's intended end of the spiritual state of glorified man are not equal. The start is a beginning in glory (small g) and the end is an ending in Glory (big G).

(a) The end is and will never be corrupted because there will be no more sin or death (Rev 21:1-4) because sin and death have been conquered and put under the foot of God. Therefore it can be properly said that the spiritual life of man is incorruptible.

(b) The beginning, i.e., with Adam, was not incorruptible. For although Adam was created in glory (small g), he was not yet in the state of Glory (big G). Thus, Adam was corruptible. Therefore it would follow that the spiritual life of Adam was corruptible and not incorruptible.

An Aside: My attempt here is not to support any notion that mankind no longer has a spirit of man within him because it died (or was taken back by God).

Keep seeking God's truth (Prov 2)

 

[Van]

I don't feel like beating my head against a brick wall today, Van.

Once again, addressing me with the implication of my poor behavior, rather than addressing the issue we dispute,

Here is the actual issue:

​

We disagree that the human spirit cannot be destroyed, as God can destroy the human "soul/spirit" in Gehenna, so it can "actually die."​

 

[Charlie24]

Once again, addressing me with the implication of my poor behavior, rather than addressing the issue we dispute,

Here is the actual issue:

​

We disagree that the human spirit cannot be destroyed, as God can destroy the human "soul/spirit" in Gehenna, so it can "actually die."​

Yes, that's right! When you disagree with Van there is nothing you can say or do to prove otherwise.

Call it poor behavior on my part or whatever you want to call it, fine with me.

 

[Van]

Yes, that's right! When you disagree with Van there is nothing you can say or do to prove otherwise.

Call it poor behavior on my part or whatever you want to call it, fine with me.

I have been shown to be in error many times by posters addressing the disputed issue.
The human soul/spirit can be destroyed in Gehenna. You cannot prove explicit scripture wrong, Matthew 10:28

 

[Charlie24]

I have been shown to be in error many times by posters addressing the disputed issue.
The human soul/spirit can be destroyed in Gehenna. You cannot prove explicit scripture wrong, Matthew 10:28

Van, you use the Greek quite often, much more than I do, and you understand the in's and out's of it.

The Greek word for "destroy" in Matt. 10:28 is "apollymi" and can mean to cease to exist but most often, as in Matt. 10:28, it means to be ruined not ceasing to exist.

We know it's not ceasing to exist, they live on forever in the Lake of Fire.

 

[JonC]

so you proved the trinity without the word trinity. thank you, we are 100% in agreement

I have showed you many passages I feel support my view. It would be the same.

Again.. this is the best analogy I can offer. I will repost..

EG said

He (Adam) was created natural. he was created a human.

Christ was a spirit. that entered a human Body.

But Adam was created perfect. without sin, In perfect relationship with God.

He did not need saved
He did not need the Holy Spirit
He did not need born again
He did not need to have his relationship restored with God
for this reason, He would be classified as being spiritually alive. By his own merit.

The moment he sinned

He needed saved
He needed the HS
He needed to be born again
He needed to have his relationship restored with God
For this reason. He would be classified as spiritually dead, By his own merit.

Again, Something happened between the first list, and second list. I do not know what you see this as or what you call it. But I see this as spiritual separation. or death. There was a barrier put between Adam and God. and that Barrier was sin

The word "trinity"???

I do not care what doctrines are called. I am talking about the doctrines themselves.

I never would ask you to find the words :doctrine of original sin" or even "original sin" in the Bible. That would be silly (the word "bible" is not in the Bible...and the Bible was not delivered in English).

I was asking you to provide a passage where Adam dying spiritually is in the text of Scripture, not the title of the Catholic or Reformed doctrine.

At a minimum you should be able to find "Adam died spiritually" in "what is written".

BUT the Bible dies tell us what happened, and "spiritually dying" is not listed.

So I was simply wondering how you came to your belief.

You have not provided any passages thar support your view (none of the passages you provide prove your view wrong either).


The Trinity was a good example.

I can find the doctrine stated in God's Word. God is One. Jesus and the Father are One. The Spirit is God's Spirit. The Father sent the Spirit in the Son's name.


But you have not provided a verse that states Adam died spiritually, spiritually life is corruptable, spiritual life can end, that Adam had spiritual life ....nothing. If you could find verses stating perhaps two points necessary for your belief then it would be clearer how you put them together.

But at least you have to show it is possible to die spiritually (that spiritual life is corruptable). If this life is incorruptable then there is no need to bother asking if Adam died spiritually as it would have been impossible.


What did you read that made you think "hey, Adam must have died spiritually"?

 

[Zaatar71]

so you proved the trinity without the word trinity. thank you, we are 100% in agreement

I have showed you many passages I feel support my view. It would be the same.

Again.. this is the best analogy I can offer. I will repost..

EG said

He (Adam) was created natural. he was created a human.

Christ was a spirit. that entered a human Body.

But Adam was created perfect. without sin, In perfect relationship with God.

He did not need saved
He did not need the Holy Spirit
He did not need born again
He did not need to have his relationship restored with God
for this reason, He would be classified as being spiritually alive. By his own merit.

The moment he sinned

He needed saved
He needed the HS
He needed to be born again
He needed to have his relationship restored with God
For this reason. He would be classified as spiritually dead, By his own merit.

Again, Something happened between the first list, and second list. I do not know what you see this as or what you call it. But I see this as spiritual separation. or death. There was a barrier put between Adam and God. and that Barrier was sin

You have got this right.
Gen1:31 Says 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Adam was not created as a natural man ,who cannot commune with God

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You correctly point out that Spiritual death occurred at the fall, physical death to follow...dying, thou shall surely die.

Any person who seeks to fragment the teaching, does not come to truth.
Saying Adam existed without a spirit is unscriptural!

To try and explain away spiritual death by saying, or rather inventing your own definition saying he was just a natural lump of flesh, with a mind set on the flesh...is to write your own narrative.
Rather than believing Gen 1:31.... the idea is offered that Adam was created as fallen, which has no biblical support anywhere!

Moses wrote what he wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. To twist the account is error.

To use as an excuse saying "I used to be a Calvinist" is a serious red flag, sort of a person saying, I used to be an evangelical, I used to be a baptist, I used to be a Christian. This indicates a person drifting, having lost their way. Not a go to source.

It is interesting to observe people who drift, and see if they make it back to mainstream thought, or begin their own little sect!
In either case, when you do not see these ideas anywhere among mainstream churches, reader beware!

 

[JonC]

Greetings JonC. Thank you for your witness on this board and the time you offer to God as your living sacrifice,

I notice that the title of the OP is Dying Spiritually. Further, you made this statement below in post #4.

So I am taking it that you are taking the position that Adam (mankind) did not die spiritually right after the fall (whatever that might mean). Although I am curious about this topic, I have a question regarding something you wrote in your OP.

I can only guess, but it seems like you specifically are referring to 1 Corinthians 15:35-49. These verses are under the context of the resurrection or the resurrected body/life.

So my question is, what does text that refers to the end state of what some call 'the glorified man' have to do with the state of what I'll simply call Adam's innocence? In other words, is it a proper assumption to think that the state of Adam's beginning should be equated (as in seen as equal) to the state of mankind's intended end as glorified man?

It seems pretty obvious to me that Adam's spiritual state and God's intended end of the spiritual state of glorified man are not equal. The start is a beginning in glory (small g) and the end is an ending in Glory (big G).

(a) The end is and will never be corrupted because there will be no more sin or death (Rev 21:1-4) because sin and death have been conquered and put under the foot of God. Therefore it can be properly said that the spiritual life of man is incorruptible.

(b) The beginning, i.e., with Adam, was not incorruptible. For although Adam was created in glory (small g), he was not yet in the state of Glory (big G). Thus, Adam was corruptible. Therefore it would follow that the spiritual life of Adam was corruptible and not incorruptible.

An Aside: My attempt here is not to support any notion that mankind no longer has a spirit of man within him because it died (or was taken back by God).

Keep seeking God's truth (Prov 2)

Yes, I am saying that God told Adam what hapoened to him - he would "return to the dust from which he was made". That is the only thing God told Adam would hapoen to him.

Then God cast him out of the Garden so he wouldn't eat of the Tree of Life.

"Since you have been born again...of imperishable seed". The imperishable is referring to the seed, not the end state. The life given is everlasting. And yes, that will be out end state. Jesus is the Life and we will be conformed into His image.

I believe (opinion here) that the Tree of Life is this life in Christ (spiritual life). Adam had a choice and chose the desires of the flesh (as do we all, by nature).


My question here is, had Augustine not used that Latin mistranslation and had the Catholic Church not developed a fuller Doctrine which had Adam dying spiritually, could we really get there from God's Word?

If so, how?

That is what I was hoping @Eternally Grateful was going to do. Provide the proof that spiritual life is not everlasting life, then walk through Scripture how he developed his view.

I am not interested in starting with any view and then looking for biblical support (I believe doctrine shoukd be developed from Scripture, not developed and then look to the Bible for support).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The word "trinity"???

I do not care what doctrines are called. I am talking about the doctrines themselves.

I never would ask you to find the words :doctrine of original sin" or even "original sin" in the Bible. That would be silly (the word "bible" is not in the Bible...and the Bible was not delivered in English).

I was asking you to provide a passage where Adam dying spiritually is in the text of Scripture, not the title of the Catholic or Reformed doctrine.

At a minimum you should be able to find "Adam died spiritually" in "what is written".

BUT the Bible dies tell us what happened, and "spiritually dying" is not listed.

So I was simply wondering how you came to your belief.

You have not provided any passages thar support your view (none of the passages you provide prove your view wrong either).


The Trinity was a good example.

I can find the doctrine stated in God's Word. God is One. Jesus and the Father are One. The Spirit is God's Spirit. The Father sent the Spirit in the Son's name.


But you have not provided a verse that states Adam died spiritually, spiritually life is corruptable, spiritual life can end, that Adam had spiritual life ....nothing. If you could find verses stating perhaps two points necessary for your belief then it would be clearer how you put them together.

But at least you have to show it is possible to die spiritually (that spiritual life is corruptable). If this life is incorruptable then there is no need to bother asking if Adam died spiritually as it would have been impossible.


What did you read that made you think "hey, Adam must have died spiritually"?

round and round we go.

Once again I will try

You did not see the verses I have given as proving my point. Just like I do not believe the one verse you give proves your point (Which is why i suggested we stop)

However I have asked you multiple times now to respond to this.. and show where I am wrong

EG said

He (Adam) was created natural. he was created a human.

Christ was a spirit. that entered a human Body.

But Adam was created perfect. without sin, In perfect relationship with God.

He did not need saved
He did not need the Holy Spirit
He did not need born again
He did not need to have his relationship restored with God
for this reason, He would be classified as being spiritually alive. By his own merit.

The moment he sinned

He needed saved
He needed the HS
He needed to be born again
He needed to have his relationship restored with God
For this reason. He would be classified as spiritually dead, By his own merit.

Again, Something happened between the first list, and second list. I do not know what you see this as or what you call it. But I see this as spiritual separation. or death. There was a barrier put between Adam and God. and that Barrier was sin

This is all I need..

can you please respond to this question. What happened.

if you say nothing happened. then again, there is no need to go on

 

[JonC]

round and round we go.

Once again I will try

You did not see the verses I have given as proving my point. Just like I do not believe the one verse you give proves your point (Which is why i suggested we stop)

However I have asked you multiple times now to respond to this.. and show where I am wrong

EG said

He (Adam) was created natural. he was created a human.

Christ was a spirit. that entered a human Body.

But Adam was created perfect. without sin, In perfect relationship with God.

He did not need saved
He did not need the Holy Spirit
He did not need born again
He did not need to have his relationship restored with God
for this reason, He would be classified as being spiritually alive. By his own merit.

The moment he sinned

He needed saved
He needed the HS
He needed to be born again
He needed to have his relationship restored with God
For this reason. He would be classified as spiritually dead, By his own merit.

Again, Something happened between the first list, and second list. I do not know what you see this as or what you call it. But I see this as spiritual separation. or death. There was a barrier put between Adam and God. and that Barrier was sin

This is all I need..

can you please respond to this question. What happened.

if you say nothing happened. then again, there is no need to go on

I disagree with your logic.

Obviously Adam needed a Savior, as evidenced by the fact that when given a choice he chose the desires if the flesh.

BUT you bring up a good point.

The Bible describes life in the Spirit as the "Spirit of God" in us. How can Adam not have the Spirit of God in him and be "spiritually alive"?

The Bible describes spiritually life as "everlasting". How can "everlasting life" die?

My point is you are creating an odd "third" death (not the physical death, not the Second Death....but something altogether different).

I never questioned that you have all you need. You do not need a strictly biblical view on this topic. I questioned whether you relied on Scripture rather than Catholic digma that became Protestant tradition at the Reformation.

From what you have posted it appears you would not have come up with your view had it not become tradition centuries after the Resurrection.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I disagree with your logic.

Obviously Adam needed a Savior, as evidenced by the fact that when given a choice he chose the desires if the flesh.

He did not need a savior before that fact? This is quite amazing you would even think this. because it certainly did not come from the bible

He had never sinned. so would not suffer the consequences of that sin and again, You have not shown me what occurred between the first group and second group.

Its not hard. even if we disagree with what you think happened and what I think happened. at least answer

BUT you bring up a good point.

The Bible describes life in the Spirit as the "Spirit of God" in us. How can Adam not have the Spirit of God in him and be "spiritually alive"?

The Bible describes spiritually life as "everlasting". How can "everlasting life" die?

My point is you are creating an odd "third" death (not the physical death, not the Second Death....but something altogether different).

Again, if you read what I have been saying, you would see my defenition of spiritual death vs spiritual life. it appears you still are going off what you have been told. and not listening to me at all

I never questioned that you have all you need. You do not need a strictly biblical view on this topic. I questioned whether you relied on Scripture rather than Catholic digma that became Protestant tradition at the Reformation.

This is offensive, and I take great offence. especially since I told you this is not what I am doing

again, this shows you are just trying to argue against ISMS, and not what the word says or what I am saying

From what you have posted it appears you would not have come up with your view had it not become tradition centuries after the Resurrection.

This again just shows you have not listened to a word I have been saying.

and lets be clear. I could say the same thing to you.. about getting your view from listening to men. whoever those men may be

 

[Van]

Van, you use the Greek quite often, much more than I do, and you understand the in's and out's of it.

The Greek word for "destroy" in Matt. 10:28 is "apollymi" and can mean to cease to exist but most often, as in Matt. 10:28, it means to be ruined not ceasing to exist.

We know it's not ceasing to exist, they live on forever in the Lake of Fire.

Thanks for explicitly stating why you accept the possible meaning consistent with your doctrine, rather than the meaning consistent with the context.

We are not to fear the one who cannot kill the soul but we are to fear the one who can kill the soul. That is the contextual meaning! The second death does not mean the second non-death.