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Total depravity or total inability?

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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The video of post #20 asserts that even if a person has hardened their heart, they are not disabled from "coming to their senses" and returning to God's truth.

I see two conditions described in scripture. First, the one who is so hardened they cannot even grasp the gospel, such that they do not even understand it. I do not see how these would then ever come to their senses. However, others understand and reject it in whole or in part. These then could come to their senses. Examples of rejecting in part would be soils #2 and 3 from Matthew 13. Initial rejection upon understanding would be people like the rich young ruler. Those able to understand comprise the fields white for harvest. Those so hardened they cannot understand are those "not of My sheep" (not of those still able to understand God's truth). I believe their punishment in the afterlife will be more severe for those able to understand but still rejecting the gospel.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
So you deny clear scriptural text and twist it to fit your man-made religion.

Drawing is the Spiritual application of Christs atoning work and is applicable to all not just some. His death was sufficient to cover the sins of all mankind but is efficient only for those that freely trust in Him.
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Drawing is the Spiritual application of Christs atoning work unto His Sheep, so they hear His voice and follow Him
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Twisting scripture again BF.

ALL means all not your so called "elect of all groups". That is just a false calvinist teaching.
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The all means all nations of men, in accordance with the Abrahamic Covenant Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
 
D

Dave...

Active Member
Van said:
Yes, I agree with your video demonstrating the "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine. Same truth as I quoted from Geisler.

But I did not see where you addressed my view that the lost are able to truly repent without being enabled by prevenient grace.

I believe the action of the lost to trust in God and His Christ, might provide the basis for God having mercy upon them, if He credits their faith as righteousness.
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Hey Van

I did not say that I did not believe in prevenient grace. God's Word could be considered a form prevenient grace. The presence of God is a form of prevenient grace. His tabernacle, the Temple, Jesus Himself in His incarnation. Remember, before the Holy Spirit indwelling was given to believers, In John, Jesus said "I am with you, and I will be in you", speaking of His Spirit, the Holy Spirit (see John 14:17, connect to John 12:35-36 below). Therefore, anyone "in Christ" brings that presence and prevenient grace (drawing) with them when they evangelize non believers. Prevenient grace can be rejected.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 12:35-36 Then Jesus said to them, "A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

Rejection of that grace....

Acts 7:51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

Dave
 
D

Dave...

Active Member
Van said:
The video of post #20 asserts that even if a person has hardened their heart, they are not disabled from "coming to their senses" and returning to God's truth.

I see two conditions described in scripture. First, the one who is so hardened they cannot even grasp the gospel, such that they do not even understand it. I do not see how these would then ever come to their senses. However, others understand and reject it in whole or in part. These then could come to their senses. Examples of rejecting in part would be soils #2 and 3 from Matthew 13. Initial rejection upon understanding would be people like the rich young ruler. Those able to understand comprise the fields white for harvest. Those so hardened they cannot understand are those "not of My sheep" (not of those still able to understand God's truth). I believe their punishment in the afterlife will be more severe for those able to understand but still rejecting the gospel.
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Hey Van

I think that unbelievers understand it, at least intellectually. This Idea that unbelievers cannot grasp what the Gospel message is a farse. It's not that they didn't understand what Jesus was saying. They hung Him on the cross for it. They didn't see Him, as He told it, in the OT, which they were very familiar with. He didn't fit what they understood it to be. Jesus told them, if you believed Moses, you would also believe Me, he spoke of Me. THIS they could not see and it angered them (John 5:46-47). This goes into the John 6:44 video as well from post #19, the Sheep.

That hardening is natural and progressive. But God can escalate that process judicially. The Jews who were hardened judicially opened the door for the Gentiles to be grafted in, but they could still themselves believe and be grafted back in (Romans 11:23). Romans 11 describes the Jews who rejected the Gospel as being in a state of spiritual blindness and being God's "enemies" for the sake of the Gentiles, yet still beloved by God due to their forefathers, and subject to His judgment but with the possibility of future salvation.

There comes a point in time when God can finalize that judicial hardening. It's just gone too far and there's no turning back. Like blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If you've had complete revelation, and you call Jesus the exact opposite of what He is, like some of the Scribes and Pharisees did, then there's no hope for you.

The point of the video is that spiritual blindness has many layers, and Arminianism believes in most of those layers. They just reject that a person is completely blind and unable to do anything from birth. They believe that it is a process and is a direct result of sin, and sometimes this is judicial on top of that as well, as the cups represented in the video in post # 20 explained.

Dave
 
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Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Drawing is the Spiritual application of Christs atoning work unto His Sheep, so they hear His voice and follow Him
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Why do you keep repeating yourself BF. Do you think if you say it enough times then it will become true. Sorry error is error no matter how many times you say it.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
The all means all nations of men, in accordance with the Abrahamic Covenant Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
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You may finally be getting it BF but you still have a ways to go.

ALL will be blessed and you do realize that nations are made up of people and the people in those nations that freely trust in Christ will be saved.

So when Christ said ALL would be drawn to Him what did He mean BF? Was it the country such as France, USA, Canada etc or was it the people from those various nations?

Here is a hint BF. Countries are not saved, people are.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
You may finally be getting it BF but you still have a ways to go.

ALL will be blessed and you do realize that nations are made up of people and the people in those nations that freely trust in Christ will be saved.

So when Christ said ALL would be drawn to Him what did He mean BF? Was it the country such as France, USA, Canada etc or was it the people from those various nations?

Here is a hint BF. Countries are not saved, people are.
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The all in Jn 12:32 are people from all nations
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
The all in Jn 12:32 are people from all nations
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Correct ALL the people from ALL the nations will be drawn to Christ and you would agree with that if you believed what John 12:32 says.

But for some reason you have to modify what He has said. Perhaps it is because under your man-made religion you have men drawn irresistible force.

Not a biblical view but it is one you support.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Correct ALL the people from ALL the nations will be drawn to Christ and you would agree with that if you believed what John 12:32 says.

But for some reason you have to modify what He has said. Perhaps it is because under your man-made religion you have men drawn irresistible force.

Not a biblical view but it is one you support.
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Yes people from all nations are saved according to Jn 12:32. Like here Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of
every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The words out of means from!
 
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