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Do these verses fully summarize what is needed for salvation?

C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Anyway, the main point being the reality of Jesus Flesh being real food and His Blood being real drink can not be ignored.

“ Unless you .............................................................................., you have no life in you.”

Jesus is communicating something really important to know here in this blank space.
What must we do to avoid not having life in us?

We must eat Jesus Flesh and drink His Blood.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
And supper being ended . . .
και δειπνου γενομενου
Is the common Greek text.
Click to expand...

You are ducking into an obscure word rabbit hole to avoid the important Scriptural narrative.

to be, become, happen; to come into existence, be born.

to come into existence; established, come to pass, happen, occur.

All these are other uses of the word ginomenuo in scripture.

καὶ δείπνου γινομένου

Kai. deipnou. ginomenuo

And supper being born

And supper happening

And. supper. come into existence

And. supper. come to pass

And. supper established

And. supper occurring.

You get the idea.

So these translations below are fine in context of the verse.

“The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.” NIV

“And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him,” ESV

“The evening meal was underway, and the devil had already put into the heart of Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.” BSV.

Anyway, look at the actual scripture narrative occurring, the link between John 6 and the Last Supper is unmistakable and undeniable.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Cathode said:
You are ducking into an obscure word rabbit hole to avoid the important Scriptural narrative.
Click to expand...
The common Greek text reading for John 13:2 is not the obscure reading.
The one most modern Bibles translations currently choose is actually the obscure and actually the wrong reading.
99.5% mss versus 0.3% which are the obscure wrong readings.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
The common Greek text reading for John 13:2 is not the obscure reading.
The one most modern Bibles translations currently choose is actually the obscure and actually the wrong reading.
99.5% mss versus 0.3% which are the obscure wrong readings.
Click to expand...

You are ignoring the obvious scripture narrative and are scurrying into translation to avoid the obvious scripture narrative.

Supper obviously wasn’t ended if Jesus was still at table, handling the bread and dipping bread at table. The narrative itself negates your word quibbling.

Judas died at the Last Supper, Satan entered into him at the moment he ate the bread Jesus declared to be His Body.

Judas ate Jesus Body, without believing Jesus words in John 6 that His flesh was real food and blood was real drink.
Judas didn’t believe in eating Jesus Flesh for Everlasting Life. He didn’t believe “ “This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

Jesus did give Judas this bread which Jesus declared to be His Body.

The Eucharist has the opposite effect on Judas at the moment he received it in his unbelief.

Why does Judas and his betrayal even feature in the Bread of Life discourse, we find out when Judas eats the Bread of Life at the Last Supper.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Cathode said:
You are ignoring the obvious scripture narrative and are scurrying into translation to avoid the obvious scripture narrative.
Click to expand...
No I am not. That Greek verb form, meaning "was," is uniquely use in the New Testament 8x. And to deliberately change it to mean "during" in John 13:2 is wrong. And making that Greek verb form only to occur once in the whole NT. Just to attempt to change the order of events.

Luke 22:20-21, . . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
No I am not. That Greek verb form, meaning "was," is uniquely use in the New Testament 8x. And to deliberately change it to mean "during" in John 13:2 is wrong. And making that Greek verb form only to occur once in the whole NT. Just to attempt to change the order of events.

Luke 22:20-21, . . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
Click to expand...

After supper is after eating the bread which Jesus declared was His Body and passed out to the disciples to eat, this is the verse before. You left that part out, which shows supper wasn’t ended when Jesus passed the bread out to the disciples, including to Judas. Supper was ended after they ate the bread, including Judas.

“And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.”

John’s account of Last Supper fills in the detail, Jesus takes the bread and dips it before giving it to Judas.

The narrative negates your point.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Cathode said:
After supper is after eating the bread which Jesus declared was His Body and passed out to the disciples to eat, this is the verse before. You left that part out, which shows supper wasn’t ended when Jesus passed the bread out to the disciples, including to Judas. Supper was ended after they ate the bread, including Judas.

“And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.”

John’s account of Last Supper fills in the detail, Jesus takes the bread and dips it before giving it to Judas.

The narrative negates your point.
Click to expand...
The 1582 Rheims, John 13:2, And when supper was done, . . .
And my main Bible is a KJV.
It has in John 13:2, And supper being ended, . . .

Which is, I understand to be the best reading.
(P66) and most Greek mss of John.
 
M

Mur

Member
Cathode said:
We must eat Jesus Flesh and drink His Blood.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that Jesus was saying that we must eat and drink blessed bread and wine. I believe Jesus was speaking figuratively. I believe Jesus was saying that his followers must be "all-in", so to speak. After all, nobody alive today can literally eat and drink Jesus. :)
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
The 1582 Rheims, John 13:2, And when supper was done, . . .
And my main Bible is a KJV.
It has in John 13:2, And supper being ended, . . .
Click to expand...

Like I said the narrative negates your point. Jesus was giving out the bread the bread dipping it and passing it to Judas.

Besides, “and supper being ended “ can mean “The evening meal was in progress”.

Supper is being ended as you are consuming it.

Look at the context of the word being used elsewhere.

appointed, constituted, established, Mk. 2:27; Gal. 3:17, et al.; to take place, come to pass, happen, occur, Mt. 1:22; 24:6, 20, 21, 34, et al. freq.; to be done, performed, effected, Mt. 21:42,

It all points to Supper happening, occurring, being done, performed, effected.

So if supper was ended as in over or finished like you are trying to interpret, why is Jesus at table handing out and dipping bread and giving it to Judas.

Your point fails at the translation level, the narrative level and common sense level.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Cathode said:
Like I said the narrative negates your point. Jesus was giving out the bread the bread dipping it and passing it to Judas.

Besides, “and supper being ended “ can mean “The evening meal was in progress”.

Supper is being ended as you are consuming it.

Look at the context of the word being used elsewhere.

appointed, constituted, established, Mk. 2:27; Gal. 3:17, et al.; to take place, come to pass, happen, occur, Mt. 1:22; 24:6, 20, 21, 34, et al. freq.; to be done, performed, effected, Mt. 21:42,

It all points to Supper happening, occurring, being done, performed, effected.

So if supper was ended as in over or finished like you are trying to interpret, why is Jesus at table handing out and dipping bread and giving it to Judas.

Your point fails at the translation level, the narrative level and common sense level.
Click to expand...
There are TWO views on the translation of the word referring to supper in Luke 22:20. And neither changes the Greek verb original used in John 13:2.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Mur said:
I don't believe that Jesus was saying that we must eat and drink blessed bread and wine. I believe Jesus was speaking figuratively. I believe Jesus was saying that his followers must be "all-in", so to speak. After all, nobody alive today can literally eat and drink Jesus. :)
Click to expand...

If Jesus was being figurative, then it wouldn’t be a “hard teaching” impossible to accept by human reason.

“This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

What would be a hard teaching impossible to accept, is if Jesus was speaking literally.

Then you’d could call it a “ hard teaching “ and ask “ Who can accept it ?”

Then you’d say “ How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

It’s all too preposterous. You’d have to turn away and no longer follow him.
 
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