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Did Jesus suffer God's wrath instead of us?

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
If your interpretation of that is correct, then 2 Peter 3:9 has to be reworded to say this.

"God wills that many should perish, and that only a few pre-selected ones will come to repentance."
2 pet 3:9 is speaking of all the elect being saved, read the whole chapter. God is more than willing that many perish, or they would not be cast into hell.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Lord have mercy on us!
Mercy yes, That is what he has for each and every elect person. Have you read 1pet, and second Pet,, they are written to elect saints who were there, and those who are yet to be born. God is not willing that any {of them} perish. Maybe you have not studied it out. The contrast in 3 is between the saved elect, and scoffers, and mockers who deny truth....you miss what peter wrote; to-usward {elect}..not all men,
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Mercy yes, That is what he has for each and every elect person. Have you read 1pet, and second Pet,, they are written to elect saints who were there, and those who are yet to be born. God is not willing that any {of them} perish. Maybe you have not studied it out. The contrast in 3 is between the saved elect, and scoffers, and mockers who deny truth....you miss what peter wrote; to-usward {elect}..not all men,

It's just sad, Z, that Peter said God is not willing that any should perish, but you insist He is willing.

Just a total misunderstanding of God's sovereignty.

I'm praying for you, Brother!
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
You cannot apply illustrations to anything except what is being illustrated without creating an error.
I showed you the scripture Jn 10 16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Elect were Elect before Peter preached the Gospel to them to obtain Salvation 2 Tim 2:10

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Mercy yes, That is what he has for each and every elect person. Have you read 1pet, and second Pet,, they are written to elect saints who were there, and those who are yet to be born. God is not willing that any {of them} perish. Maybe you have not studied it out. The contrast in 3 is between the saved elect, and scoffers, and mockers who deny truth....you miss what peter wrote; to-usward {elect}..not all men,
Yes they were contrasted to some whose condemnation is sealed 2 Pet 3 7

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

So God is willing the men of perdition perish, certainly they are not of the usward
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
It's just sad, Z, that Peter said God is not willing that any should perish, but you insist He is willing
Charlie, that is not what the text says/ It does not say that God is not willing that any among mankind perish. You ignore the to-usward, and the word used is boulemai. God has decreed destined and purposed that not one He is speaking of will perish....All the covenant children will be saved, not one will perish, as Jesus had already taught the Apostles, jn 6;37
Just a total misunderstanding of God's sovereignty.
It sure is, on your part. You totally ignore God is a Covenant making, and Covenant keeping God, like many evangelical Baptists who are slow to get to the party.
I'm praying for you, Brother!
Well we can pray for each other for sure, but the teaching has been written before we are born
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Yes they were contrasted to some whose condemnation is sealed 2 Pet 3 7

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

So God is willing the men of perdition perish, certainly they are not of the usward
Yes, there is a distinct contrast all through the bible between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. Many who object do so emotionally, and not scripturally.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Charlie, that is not what the text says/ It does not say that God is not willing that any among mankind perish. You ignore the to-usward, and the word used is boulemai. God has decreed destined and purposed that not one He is speaking of will perish....All the covenant children will be saved, not one will perish, as Jesus had already taught the Apostles, jn 6;37

It sure is, on your part. You totally ignore God is a Covenant making, and Covenant keeping God, like many evangelical Baptists who are slow to get to the party.

Well we can pray for each other for sure, but the teaching has been written before we are born

No, Z, that is the indoctrination working.

"but is longsuffering to us-ward" is God bearing long with us attempting to bring us to repentance, even though He knows most will not.

Plainly He is not willing for any to perish, "but that all should come to repentance."

The "all" is all of mankind, Z.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
This is one of you best and most accurate posts on this. It looks as if you have diagnosed the issue as if you put all the posts under a theological microscope, and can come up with no other conclusion! Well done!
We all should try to read John owens the death of death in the death of Christ
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
No, Z, that is the indoctrination working.
Actually it is clear bible truth
"but is longsuffering to us-ward" is God bearing long with us attempting to bring us to repentance, even though He knows most will not.
you have it all wrong....the longsuffering of God leads to the salvation of each and everyone peter speaks of:
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Where did Paul write this? look in your bible Charlie;Romans 9:
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Sorry to disappoint you, but it is a chapter dealing with God's mercy on the ELECT
Plainly He is not willing for any to perish, "but that all should come to repentance."
Plainly multitudes do perish Mt 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The "all" is all of mankind, Z.
Wrong...God does not try and fail, everyone He intends to save will indeed be saved, He does not lose one of them. He saves all the elect sinners He has purposed to save. He saves the elect only, no more, no less. He is longsuffering bearing with the ungodly, until all the elect children are born, and savingly drawn to salvation in Him. He saves 100% of those he has proposed to save. ALL MANKIND IS NOT SAVED.
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Actually it is clear bible truth

you have it all wrong....the longsuffering of God leads to the salvation of each and everyone peter speaks of:
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Where did Paul write this? look in your bible Charlie;Romans 9:
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Sorry to disappoint you, but it is a chapter dealing with God's mercy on the ELECT

Plainly multitudes do perish Mt 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Wrong...God does not try and fail, everyone He intends to save will indeed be saved, He does not lose one of them. he saves all the elect sinners he has purposed to save. he saves the elect only, no more, no less. he is longsuffering bearing with the ungodly, until all the elect children are born, and savingly drawn to salvation in Him. He saves 100% of those he has proposed to save. ALL MANKIND IS NOT SAVED.

There's no arguing with a Calvinist, you can't show them it goes against the grain of Scripture.

They totally ignore God's pleadings in Scripture to turn from their wickedness but they don't.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
There's no arguing with a Calvinist, you can't show them it goes against the grain of Scripture.

They totally ignore God's pleadings in Scripture to turn from their wickedness but they don't.
Charlie, I have shown you beyond doubt, your error and how your posts contradict scripture. I showed you how peter remarks that Paul wrote about the longsuffering of God leading to the salvation of the elect. What else do you think he was mentioning Paul writings about?
I am not even arguing ,just posting areas that you should read, and if you feel the need , you can offer what you see.
Where do you see God pleading with Calvinists to turn from their wickedness? What are you talking about?
You cannot quite offer a biblical response, so this is the best you can come up with?
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Charlie, I have shown you beyond doubt, your error and how your posts contradict scripture. I showed you how peter remarks that Paul wrote about the longsuffering of God leading to the salvation of the elect. What else do you think he was mentioning Paul writings about?
I am not even arguing ,just posting areas that you should read, and if you feel the need , you can offer what you see.
Where do you see God pleading with Calvinists to turn from their wickedness? What are you talking about?
You cannot quite offer a biblical response, so this is the best you can come up with?

NO, you misunderstood, I guess I could have explained it better.

Not God pleading with Calvinists, I'm speaking of God pleading with Israel throughout the Scripture to turn from their wickedness, but most did not. God know they were Hell bound, but yet He pleaded with them.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
NO, you misunderstood, I guess I could have explained it better.
Thanks for the needed clarification,
lol What was in your mind , did not make it to your keyboard,lol
Not God pleading with Calvinists, I'm speaking of God pleading with Israel throughout the Scripture to turn from their wickedness, but most did not. God know they were Hell bound, but yet He pleaded with them.
The doctrines of grace do not teach anything different on this.
Chapter 15. Of Repentance Unto Life and Salvation
1. Such of the elect that are converted at riper years, having sometime lived in the state of nature, and therein served divers pleasures, God in their effectual calling gives them repentance to life. 1

1. Titus 3:2-5
2. Whereas there is none that does good and does not sin, 2 and the best of men may, through the power and deceitfulness of their corruption dwelling in them, with the prevalency of temptation, fall in to great sins and provocations; God has, in the covenant of grace, mercifully provided that believers so sinning and falling be renewed through repentance unto salvation. 3

2. Ecclesiastes 7:20
3. Luke 22:31-32
3. This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, 4 whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, does, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrancy, 5 praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavor, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things. 6

4. Zechariah 12:10; Acts 11:18
5. Ezekiel 36:31; 2 Corinthians 7:11
6. Psalms 119:6, 128
4. As repentance is to be continued through the whole course of our lives, upon the account of the body of death, and the motions thereof, so it is every man’s duty to repent of his particular known sins particularly. 7

7. Luke 19:8; 1 Timothy 1:13, 15
5. Such is the provision which God has made through Christ in the covenant of grace for the preservation of believers unto salvation, that although there is no sin so small but it deserves damnation, 8 yet there is no sin so great that it shall bring damnation to them that repent, 9 which makes the constant preaching of repentance necessary.

8. Romans 6:23
9. Isaiah 1:16-18, 55:7
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the needed clarification,
lol What was in your mind , did not make it to your keyboard,lol

The doctrines of grace do not teach anything different on this.
Chapter 15. Of Repentance Unto Life and Salvation
1. Such of the elect that are converted at riper years, having sometime lived in the state of nature, and therein served divers pleasures, God in their effectual calling gives them repentance to life. 1

1. Titus 3:2-5
2. Whereas there is none that does good and does not sin, 2 and the best of men may, through the power and deceitfulness of their corruption dwelling in them, with the prevalency of temptation, fall in to great sins and provocations; God has, in the covenant of grace, mercifully provided that believers so sinning and falling be renewed through repentance unto salvation. 3

2. Ecclesiastes 7:20
3. Luke 22:31-32
3. This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, 4 whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, does, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrancy, 5 praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavor, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things. 6

4. Zechariah 12:10; Acts 11:18
5. Ezekiel 36:31; 2 Corinthians 7:11
6. Psalms 119:6, 128
4. As repentance is to be continued through the whole course of our lives, upon the account of the body of death, and the motions thereof, so it is every man’s duty to repent of his particular known sins particularly. 7

7. Luke 19:8; 1 Timothy 1:13, 15
5. Such is the provision which God has made through Christ in the covenant of grace for the preservation of believers unto salvation, that although there is no sin so small but it deserves damnation, 8 yet there is no sin so great that it shall bring damnation to them that repent, 9 which makes the constant preaching of repentance necessary.

8. Romans 6:23
9. Isaiah 1:16-18, 55:7

I don't see how you could get God pleading with Calvinists from that.

Calvin and his theory came about 1500 years later.
 
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