Did Jesus suffer God's wrath instead of us?

[JonC]

Dont need that sound bite, He propitiated God for the sins of the elect He died for. If He didnt do that, they would be under wrath for their sins as the rest of mankind. The word propitate hilasmos means:

1. an appeasing, propitiating
2. the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Strong's Greek: 2434. ἱλασμός (hilasmos) -- Propitiation, Atoning Sacrifice

Again, you are straying from God's Word.

Jesus is the Propitiation for our sins.
As our God sent Jesus to be the Propitiation for our sins.
High Priest Jesus made propitiation in behalf of (sonce you prefer that onstead of "for" our sins).

Nothing in the Bible says that Jesus is the Propitiation for only the sins of the elect.
You are forgetting the Judgment (which has been given to the Son).

We escape the wrath of God.

But God is not like the pagan gods or luje a child that His wrath can be apoeased. His wrath is ALWAYS against tge wicked.

 

[JesusFan]

I am starting this thread for room. On a thread about to close due to length @Martin Marprelate claimed he would provide passages stating his belief.

Since a kep point of his faith is God punishing our sins laid on Jesus, Jesus experiencing God's wrath against sin, instead of us, I thought this would be a good place to start.

Why? Because if what Jesus suffered was not God's wrath against our sins then his entire theory is nullified.

Now, I know people can start with that idea and then go to the Bible and say "thats what it really teaches". BUT we can do that with any heresy as well.

So I am interested in the passages @Martin Marprelate (and others) have found in the text of S ripture si.ply stating Jesus suffered God's wrath. I think this is a good start.

Have you not already though judged PST as being a pagan concept, and that would not be fair to have Jesus suffer due to our sins, as he committed none? That Jesus died due to the world system, and evil in world, and not due to God the father directly causing that to happen?

 

[JesusFan]

I am sorry, brother, for my lack of clarity.

I understand that men think the Bible teaches different things. I understand that some think it teaches that Jesus suffered God's wrath (I once would have agreed). Men think the Bible teaches all kinds of diverse ideas.

I was asking for actual passages stating that theory.

The whole reason I asked is because I have come to realize that the Bible teaches "what is written" (the actual text of Scripture).

You keep on rejecting clear passages that affirm Pst though

 

[JesusFan]

I believe "what is written" ("every word that cometh forth from God") rather than "leaning on my own understanding".

What passage are you speaking of?

God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and as part of that, Jesus took upon Himself that dread bowl of wrath the father had been storing up against our sin

 

[JesusFan]

The reason I asked is that there are so many ways of taking the question.

I believe that Jesus died as a representative substitute (like headship) insofar as He is the "Second Adam" (between Adam and Christ, He is the Last Adam and Adam was the First Adam).

I believe that Jesus died for our sins, was made sin for us.

I also believe that the wicked will be rightfully judged and punished by God, and that in Christ we escape the wrath to come.

I do not subscribe to any paticular philosophy using those ideas, or Calvin's Atonement theory, if that is what you are asking.

That is why I think it would better if Christians restricted foundational doctrines (important doctrines upon which other doctrines are built) to what God has told us.

God told us that Jesus was the lamb of God, who came to bear the very sins of the world correct?

 

[Brightfame52]

You misunderstand.

I am not saying one passage from one place. While this is sometimes impirtant, depending on the context, we are talking about a broader topic when we speak of doctrines like the Atonement.

When I state my view I typically reference Genesis, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, the Psalms, the Gosoeks, Romans. Hebrews, etc.

I am not looking for a verbatim standard, if you mean a list of specific words.

This is where interpretation comes in. The words stated must mean the concept held, otherwise it is not Gid's Word but what some men (here a relatively small sect) believe the Bible teaches). It woukd be an understanding some hold rather than "every word that comes from God".

For example, if Jesus experienced God's wrath then we would find passages stating that "Jesus suffered God's wrath", "God punished His Elect", "Jesus drank the cup of wrath", etc.

It would be stated in the Bible because it is important.



Another example - another relatively small sect believes that the Bible teaches God will provide material wealth to thise with enough faith. They cannot find this in the Bible, but offer the same defence you have offered here.

Their belief (the prosperity gospel" passes the same standard you apply to your belief. But neither passes the text of Scripture.

Sound like I said, you looking for verbatim wording, or sound bites, you just want to win an argument. Most truth comes from comparing scripture with scripture and analogy If the word wrath is never used, its synonym or close equivalent is. Christ bore the punishment for the elects sins, it was Gods Justice. Justice can be called wrath, like in civil government, providing Justice , its called wrath Rom 13:4

.4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Christ died for the evil the elect did, He personally did no evil, but He bore the punishment that Justice demands against evil doers like you and i. So I think you just want to win a argument

 

[Brightfame52]

The Bible does say that Jesus is oyr representative substitute

It doesnt have to, its Illustrated, so you looking for sound bites to win a argument.

 

[Brightfame52]

Again, you are straying from God's Word.

Jesus is the Propitiation for our sins.
As our God sent Jesus to be the Propitiation for our sins.
High Priest Jesus made propitiation in behalf of (sonce you prefer that onstead of "for" our sins).

You just going in circles, you not really making any points

 

[JonC]

Sound like I said, you looking for verbatim wording, or sound bites, you just want to win an argument. Most truth comes from comparing scripture with scripture and analogy If the word wrath is never used, its synonym or close equivalent is. Christ bore the punishment for the elects sins, it was Gods Justice. Justice can be called wrath, like in civil government, providing Justice , its called wrath Rom 13:4

.4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Christ died for the evil the elect did, He personally did no evil, but He bore the punishment that Justice demands against evil doers like you and i. So I think you just want to win a argument

No, I am not looking for verbatim wording.

I am asking for any passage that states Jesus suffered God's wrath regardless of wording.

Thus far you have provided passages that do not even come close to stating your belief and simply insist that its what the passage teaches.

There are countless understandings people have about what the Bible teaches. What all of these diverse theories have in common is they all reject the truth that Gid's Word teaches "what is written" in the text.

So no, not verbatim - BUT it has to actually be in "what is written".

Justice can not be called wrath. Wrath is one aspect of justice. So is vindication. In the Psalms the psalmist often cries for justice. In the OT Israel often cries for justice. They ate not calling for wrath but vindication.

God did judge Christ. We see this when He "gave Him a name above every name", when He "raised Him from the dead", when He called Him "My Righteous One", and "My Elect".


Justice is not wrath, although wrath can be just.

 

[JonC]

It doesnt have to, its Illustrated, so you looking for sound bites to win a argument.

You, again, misunderstood.

I am saying the Bible DOES call Jesus a representative substitute. And NOT verba ("in Christ", "Second Adam").

I am asking for you to apply the standard we are commanded to apply towards all doctrine to your belief.


What do you believe is the difference between leaning on one's own understanding and leaning on every word from God?

 

[JonC]

You just going in circles, you not really making any points

My point is that you can find my belief in "what is written" in God's Word BUT you cannot find your belief in "what is written" in God's Word.

You, if you have not already, will have to decide whether to lean on every word that cometh from God or to lean on your own understanding. You will have to decide to belueve God's Word or what a "Christian" sect tells you is taught by the Bible.

You cannot do both.