This is one of you best and most accurate posts on this. It looks as if you have diagnosed the issue as if you put all the posts under a theological microscope, and can come up with no other conclusion! Well done!
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Did Jesus suffer God's wrath instead of us?
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
That's the Sheep or the Sons. He taste death for them so they don't have to. He abolish death for them. Again the word for in Heb 2:9 is hyper and means in behalf of, for the sake of and instead of. Like here 2 Cor 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
So those He tasted death for will not die for sin anymore. Christ died as a substitute in their behalf and God accepted it
It does not matter what you think, or what I think. Baptists have never been unified under your theory and for a time it was considered a departure from the faith (by Baptists). Now it is popular in some forms.
But that does not matter.
What matters is the fact that you constantly call it a biblical view but cannot provide even one passage stating that what Jesus suffered was God's wrath.
That is what matters.
Do you seriously not consider it odd that you find my belief unbiblical yet I can provide God's Own words stating my belief and you cannot find your faith anywhere in the Biblical text?????
That shoukd tell you something. You comdemn God's words yet elevate human understanding.
That is not in the verse. παντὸς is non-exclusive.
This is what I mean by you rejecting the actual words of God in favor of what the men you worship tell you Bible verses "really" means.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
It's the Sheep, all of them, that is why He rose after dying the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
And pantos can and is exclusive in many places in scripture. For instance " all the seed" Romans 4:16 and Heb 2:16 said He took on the seed of Abraham.
Cjrist did die for His sheep (the elect). But the only places in the Bible where "the elect" are defined do so as "those in Christ", "thise who believe".
I remember older preachers saying "test what I say against what is written in the Bible, don't just believe it".
Too many today just believe what they are told.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
He died for the elect B4 they believe
Yes, He is the Propitiation for the sins if the whole world.
But, per Scripture, the elect are those who believe and are "in Christ".
That is one place you are trusting pure philosophy. The Bible defines the elect as Christians (those who believe, thise who are "in Christ"). These were foreknown in Christ and are predestined to be conformed to His image.
We cannot extend "the elect" to men who do not belueve even if they will come to believe without rejecting God's words.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The whole world of the elect
They were in Christ B4 He died for them and B4 they believe. They were Chosen in Christ B4 the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:4
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
False. The Elect and the sheep are the same and Jesus had them before they heard His voice and believe, so they were still unbelievers Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
This (both points) is philosophy. We do not lean on philosophy but on every word that comes from God.
In Ephesians 1 Paul praises God has who has blessed the Christians in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."
You change the passage to say that He chose us before the foundation of the world to be in Him.
This is not only verified by the actual passage you reference.
Paul says (in Titus) that the elect are those who have faith.
Paul says that the elect are those who are saved (1 Tim).
Paul says that the elect are thise who have died and are in Christ (Colossians)
Paul says that the elect are those who no longer walk in sin (Colossians)
Paul says the elect are those who walk in the Spirit (Eph 2)
Paul says the ekect are thise who follow Christ (1 Thess)
And in Ephesians Paul says that the elect are those chosen before the foundation of the world in Christ.
I see your confusion.
The context of the passage is salvation to Gentiles.
Jesus was not talking about literal sheep but people. He is using the illustration of a shepherd gathering a flock.
This is about Gentiles - those not of that "flock" (again, people, not literal sherp) being gathered into this one fold under one shepherd (not literally a shepherd but Jesus Himself).
This is not speaking of choosing or being chosen (again, to help you grasp the words, "the elect" means "the chosen").
Likewise, when Scripture says that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world this dies not mean that Jesus died before He was born in Bethlehem.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Eph 1:4 say that the elect were Chosen in Christ B4 the foundation of the world.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Still Sheep and most not yet Born. They were still His and there names had already been written in the lambs book of life from the foundation of the world.
If your interpretation of that is correct, then 2 Peter 3:9 has to be reworded to say this.
"God wills that many should perish, and that only a few pre-selected ones will come to repentance."
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
That verse is for the elect
If it was it would read as the rewording I presented.
But it doesn't say what you claim. Everyone can see that but the Calvinist.
The Calvinists have been blinded through indoctrination.
They have their own private definitions for words such as, all, world, whosoever.
Only the Calvinists see these words to mean what they claim.
They have no choice but to change the definitions of these words, their doctrine will not pass the test without it.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
It's for the elect and the verse reads just fine 2 Pet 3:9
You cannot apply illustrations to anything except what is being illustrated without creating an error.
Jesus was using an illustration (a shepheard gathering sheep, sheep from another flock, one fold) to speak of the gathering of Gentiles.
You misapply illustrations but outright deny passages specifically defining "the elect".
That is what Calvinists have to do.
While their philosophy is "easy-believism" (so it is attractive to many), simple, and a logical philosophy within itself it is also a very interwoven philosophy. It builds on itself.
So if one point is wrong then the whole philosophy falls apart.
The Calvinist, when faced with a passage that challenges their philosophy, cannot re-examine or question that issue within Calvinism because it would negate their faith. They have to question Scripture and find a work-around (whether another passage they can use or a way to redefine Scripture).
Scripture defines "the elect" , solution is ignore it and misuse an illustration.
Christ is the Propitiation for the whole world's sin , solution is redefined "whole world"
God so loved the world - redefined "world"
God forgives based on repentance - find another way
God defines "death" as "returning to the ground, turning to dust" - turn to RCC doctrine
God will not ounish the righteous - make an exception
God recreates man - does not apply to redemption
The list goes on.
If you allow Scripture to dictate your faith then your faith falls.
So you allow your theory to dictate what Scripture "really" means.