Imputed Righteousness

[Tea]

Does not change the following.

Those who are of God are the ones who can hear, so it is consistent with John 8:47.

 

[Silverhair]

The implication that the creature can thwart the will of the creator.



It is true that God created the surrounding events that ultimately resulted in Adam's fall, but Adam remained accountable for his sin, and God is not the author of evil. The lamb was sacrificed before the world was created, and it was God's intention to redeem a specific group of people to bring glory to Himself.



If anything at all can be determined apart from God, then He truly isn't sovereign.



Hypothetical conditional. No one seeks after God.

Romans 3:11 (ESV)
No one understands; no one seeks for God.



Statement of fact. Those who live according to the flesh are lost, and those who live after the spirit are saved.



Hypothetical conditional. Everyone knows that Christ has been raised.

“Who said anything about overpowering God but it still comes down to a condition even then. "IF" God pushed someone of a bridge into the water then they would get wet. The condition is "IF".

Even your question of whether I could overpower God is a condition. "IF" I could have overpowered God then He could not have pushed me into the water.” from my post # 266


Tea how is that an implication that the creature can thwart the will of the creator. You are reaching in your effort to deny that “IF” indicates a condition.


Further you then overlook your own theological position of divine determinism, that God has determined freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass. You say Adam had a free will but under calvinism how is that possible? It is not. So the calvinist wants free will when it is convenient but then falls back too determinism to support their non-biblical views.


No one questions that God has determined some things, eg the crucifixion, but where the calvinist goes of the rails is when you add to scripture what is not found there, eg that the crucifixion was just for a select group.


To quote you Tea “If anything at all can be determined apart from God, then He truly isn't sovereign.”

Why do you limit God? You do realize that if what you said were true then you have just made Him truly evil as no sin could come about unless He determined it. Your view of the sovereignty of God is not biblical but it is calvinistic.


Odd that you would say no one seeks after God when He says they can and that they can find Him or are you suggesting that God was being disingenuous?


Deu 4:29 But if from there you will seek the LORD your God, you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Jos 24:20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, He will turn and bring disaster on you and consume you, even after He has been good to you.”

Did the Jews not suffer when they turned form God?

Their history shows that was not hypothetical.

For support you used Rom 3:11
The statement that "there is none who seeks after God" (Rom_3:11) means that no one seeks God without God prompting him or her to do so and He does this through various means whether it be creation, (Rom 1:20) conviction of sin (Joh 16:8-9) or the gospel message (1Co 15:1-4). It does not mean that people are constitutionally incapable of seeking God. People can and should seek God (Act_17:26-27), and they are responsible for not doing so.

As we see in

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.

Paul uses the conditional sentence to make a point.

IF you live one way you die IF you live another you will live. Just as IF God had not raise Christ than we would have no basis for our faith.

Tea you continue to go to great lengths to deny IF indicates a condition. You are letting your calvinist determinism cloud your mind.

 

[Charlie24]

Those who are of God are the ones who can hear, so it is consistent with John 8:47.

What does John 8 teach us about who is not of God?

 

[37818]

Those who are of God are the ones who can hear, so it is consistent with John 8:47.

Jesus was speaking to those who were not of God because they did not heed God's words.

John 8: 47, . . . He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. . . . .

 

[Charlie24]

Jesus was speaking to those who were not of God because they did not heed God's words.

John 8: 47, . . . He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. . . . .

A good example of what you've said is David, the man after God's own heart.

He desired the things of God, he wanted God's will although he failed many times.

The Pharisees in John 8 were just the opposite, they walked after their own desires.

 

[Charlie24]

A good example of what you've said is David, the man after God's own heart.

He desired the things of God, he wanted God's will although he failed many times.

The Pharisees in John 8 were just the opposite, they walked after their own desires.

The Calvinist Handbook is absent of such facts!

 

[JesusFan]

“Who said anything about overpowering God but it still comes down to a condition even then. "IF" God pushed someone of a bridge into the water then they would get wet. The condition is "IF".

Even your question of whether I could overpower God is a condition. "IF" I could have overpowered God then He could not have pushed me into the water.” from my post # 266


Tea how is that an implication that the creature can thwart the will of the creator. You are reaching in your effort to deny that “IF” indicates a condition.


Further you then overlook your own theological position of divine determinism, that God has determined freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass. You say Adam had a free will but under calvinism how is that possible? It is not. So the calvinist wants free will when it is convenient but then falls back too determinism to support their non-biblical views.


No one questions that God has determined some things, eg the crucifixion, but where the calvinist goes of the rails is when you add to scripture what is not found there, eg that the crucifixion was just for a select group.


To quote you Tea “If anything at all can be determined apart from God, then He truly isn't sovereign.”

Why do you limit God? You do realize that if what you said were true then you have just made Him truly evil as no sin could come about unless He determined it. Your view of the sovereignty of God is not biblical but it is calvinistic.


Odd that you would say no one seeks after God when He says they can and that they can find Him or are you suggesting that God was being disingenuous?


Deu 4:29 But if from there you will seek the LORD your God, you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Jos 24:20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, He will turn and bring disaster on you and consume you, even after He has been good to you.”

Did the Jews not suffer when they turned form God?

Their history shows that was not hypothetical.

For support you used Rom 3:11
The statement that "there is none who seeks after God" (Rom_3:11) means that no one seeks God without God prompting him or her to do so and He does this through various means whether it be creation, (Rom 1:20) conviction of sin (Joh 16:8-9) or the gospel message (1Co 15:1-4). It does not mean that people are constitutionally incapable of seeking God. People can and should seek God (Act_17:26-27), and they are responsible for not doing so.

As we see in

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.

Paul uses the conditional sentence to make a point.

IF you live one way you die IF you live another you will live. Just as IF God had not raise Christ than we would have no basis for our faith.

Tea you continue to go to great lengths to deny IF indicates a condition. You are letting your calvinist determinism cloud your mind.

Either God intended that the Cross was where Jesus died to provide a particular atonement and salvation, and that will be a definite group coming to Jesus, or else he intended to save all sinners by it, and waits upon our response, hoping some will make the "right decision" to now get saved

 

[Silverhair]

Either God intended that the Cross was where Jesus died to provide a particular atonement and salvation, and that will be a definite group coming to Jesus, or else he intended to save all sinners by it, and waits upon our response, hoping some will make the "right decision" to now get saved

You almost got that right. He foreknows all who will freely trust in Him but none are saved until they freely trust in Him.
It is the error of your man-made theology that has God save a particular group.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Tea]

Tea how is that an implication that the creature can thwart the will of the creator. You are reaching in your effort to deny that “IF” indicates a condition.

Further you then overlook your own theological position of divine determinism, that God has determined freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass.

IF God desires all men to be saved, but men are able to resist what God desires, they are able to thwart His will.

IF anything comes to pass, then it is because God has determined it to be that way.

IF there's any conditional involved at all, it goes back to God since ultimately He is the one who decided to create by His own sovereign decree.

You say Adam had a free will but under calvinism how is that possible? It is not. So the calvinist wants free will when it is convenient but then falls back too determinism to support their non-biblical views.

Certainly, in his unfallen state, Adam had the option to refrain from sinning. However, this does not change the fact that the lamb had been slain before the foundation of the world, and nothing could have prevented God from bringing glory to Himself through the redemption of His people.

No one questions that God has determined some things, eg the crucifixion, but where the calvinist goes of the rails is when you add to scripture what is not found there, eg that the crucifixion was just for a select group.

Yes, Jesus said that He lays down His life for the sheep and He knows who they are.

Why do you limit God? You do realize that if what you said were true then you have just made Him truly evil as no sin could come about unless He determined it.

God did determine through secondary causes that evil would come from men, by their own desires that they are responsible for, and He uses that evil for good. It was done in such a way that doesn't make Him responsible for that evil.

I would also say that the synergist is the one limiting God because He can't accomplish His desire to save anyone unless man cooperates with Him.

Odd that you would say no one seeks after God when He says they can and that they can find Him or are you suggesting that God was being disingenuous?

God wasn't being disingenuous. IF man had the desire to seek Him, then they would. Unfortunately, man in their natural state will not.

Did the Jews not suffer when they turned form God?

Of course they did, and that is true of what man always does unless they have been given a new heart by God.

You are letting your calvinist determinism cloud your mind.

If you believe that everything hasn't been determined, then when pressed, you're going to be exposed as affirming open theism.

 

[Tea]

What does John 8 teach us about who is not of God?

Those who have not been given to the Son by the Father.

 

[Tea]

Jesus was speaking to those who were not of God because they did not heed God's words.

They don't have the ability to hear them.

 

[Charlie24]

They don't have the ability to hear them.

Speaking of the Pharisees in particular in John 8, they all had the ability to believe and a few of them did.

The Pharisees had their own reasons for rejecting Christ just as today there are many reason for rejecting Him.

They of all the people should have believed Christ and would have if He had come to do what they wanted.

 

[Tea]

Speaking of the Pharisees in particular in John 8, they all had the ability to believe and a few of them did.

They had the ability to hear the words coming out of His mouth, but that doesn't mean they had the ability to respond positively to them.

The Pharisees had their own reasons for rejecting Christ just as today there are many reason for rejecting Him.

Indeed, that is the condition of the natural man.

They of all the people should have believed Christ and would have if He had come to do what they wanted.

Jesus explained to them that He needed to liberate them from their bondage to sin. The intention behind the signs and wonders was not to coerce anyone into belief.

 

[Charlie24]

They had the ability to hear the words coming out of His mouth, but that doesn't mean they had the ability to respond positively to them.



Indeed, that is the condition of the natural man.



Jesus explained to them that He needed to liberate them from their bondage to sin. The intention behind the signs and wonders was not to coerce anyone into belief.

John would not have said Christ was the satisfaction for the sins of the whole world if were not possible for all men to believe.

 

[Silverhair]

IF God desires all men to be saved, but men are able to resist what God desires, they are able to thwart His will.

IF anything comes to pass, then it is because God has determined it to be that way.

IF there's any conditional involved at all, it goes back to God since ultimately He is the one who decided to create by His own sovereign decree.

So according to your view Since God desires all to be saved 1Ti 2:4 He was either lying or He does not have the power to carry out His desire.

Further according to you He has to determine all things or nothing comes to pass so He is responsible for all the sin and evil. No the God of scripture but you seem to be comfortable with that view.

And you cannot even say that man sins by his own choice as you just said that even that was part of God's sovereign decree.

You do realize that you have just made God out to be a monster.

Certainly, in his unfallen state, Adam had the option to refrain from sinning. However, this does not change the fact that the lamb had been slain before the foundation of the world, and nothing could have prevented God from bringing glory to Himself through the redemption of His people.

So did Adam have a free will or not?
You seem quite confused about your own theology. According to the LBCF and calvinism God has to determine all things or He is not God.

Did I say the plan for redemption through faith in the risen Christ was not God's plan? Nope did not say that.

Yes, Jesus said that He lays down His life for the sheep and He knows who they are.

And we have like sheep have all gone astray. Both Jew and Gentile have gone astray. And as we see in scripture He laid down His life for the whole world 1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

God did determine through secondary causes that evil would come from men, by their own desires that they are responsible for, and He uses that evil for good. It was done in such a way that doesn't make Him responsible for that evil.

I would also say that the synergist is the one limiting God because He can't accomplish His desire to save anyone unless man cooperates with Him.

Even those secondary cause, man's desires, have to have been determined by your version of God as you say He determines all things or He is not God.

The calvinist limits God in that He can only save a select group even though He desires all tho be saved.

And the bible limits those that will be saved to those that freely trust in God for their salvation. Trusting God to save you is not cooperation it is humbling yourself before the only one that can save you.

God wasn't being disingenuous. IF man had the desire to seek Him, then they would. Unfortunately, man in their natural state will not.

Then you disagree with scripture. Why bother with the gospel message if no one could respond to it and why would a just God hold them responsible for not doing something that it is impossible for them to do?

Of course they did, and that is true of what man always does unless they have been given a new heart by God.

If the turned from God it has to mean that at one time they trusted in Him,

One is only given a new heart after they have trusted in God not so they will trust in God.

If you believe that everything hasn't been determined, then when pressed, you're going to be exposed as affirming open theism.

That is an illogical statement Tea. There is a vast difference between 1} God foreknowing all that will happen, Him being Omniscient, and 2} God having to respond to what does happens as we see in open theism.

That is why 1} is biblical and 2} is not.

But you will have to concede that your divine determinism does make God the cause of all sin and evil as for the calvinist if He does not determine all things then He can not be God.