If God is Not Sovereign, Then There is No Grace

[KenH]

According to your view God is a failure

Since the Bible teaches that God will bring to glory EVERY PERSON that He chose before the world began, your statement makes no sense. Everything is for God's purposes and glory, even those such as Pharoah and all of the wicked:

Romans 9:7
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself:
Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[Silverhair]

Since the Bible teaches that God will bring to glory EVERY PERSON that He chose before the world began, your statement makes no sense. Everything is for God's purposes and glory, even those such as Pharoah and all of the wicked:

Romans 9:7
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself:
Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God did not choose anyone prior to creation Ken. He chose the means of our salvation, Jesus Christ. When we are in Him we are saved not before.

Your false view does make God a failure as He on one hard wants all to be saved and then your view says He only wants to save some. So we either trust the word of God or we trust your calvinist teachers. I would suggest that we trust the word of God.

 

[KenH]

Your false view does make God a failure as He on one hard wants all to be saved

If God "wants" all people that ever live to be saved, then all people that ever live will be saved. The creature is not stronger than the Creator. The false god of your imagination is a failure, Silverhair.

So we either trust the word of God

I do trust God's Word. I don't trust the false teaching of human conditionalists, who think that salvation in some way, at some point, is conditioned on fallen, dead in trespasses and sin, man to ante up and finish the job that they think that Christ left unfinished.

When Christ said "It is finished" it was finished. Period!

God did not choose anyone prior to creation Ken.

The Bible teaches that God did.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

God placed all of those He chose before the world began, according to His own purpose and grace, into His Son for Him to be their Surety and to pay all of their sin debt.

 

[Silverhair]

If God "wants" all people that ever live to be saved, then all people that ever live will be saved. The creature is not stronger than the Creator. The false god of your imagination is a failure, Silverhair.


I do trust God's Word. I don't trust the false teaching of human conditionalists, who think that salvation in some way, at some point, is conditioned on fallen, dead in trespasses and sin, man to ante up and finish the job that they think that Christ left unfinished.

When Christ said "It is finished" it was finished. Period!



The Bible teaches that God did.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

God placed all of those He chose before the world began, according to His own purpose and grace, into His Son for Him to be their Surety and to pay all of their sin debt.

Every time you post your calvinist views you just make your position worse.

Do you not have
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

in you r bible or do you just ignore them as they do not fit your theory?

Of course salvation is conditional Ken. If one does not believe then they will not be saved.
Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Yes it was finished, He was the propitiation for humanities sins. He had reconciled God.

But His death did not save anyone Ken it was the fact He was raised that allows for us to trust in the one that defeated death.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

You continue to misunderstand those verses Ken. You have listened to false teachers who told you that you were chosen before creation.

 

[Brightfame52]

Then you are in disagreement with the Holy Spirit BF. Not a good place to be.

1Ti 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

But you have put yourself offside with scripture many times in your posts.

We have been down this road before and you as then refuse to trust the word of God.

Again to teach Christ died for all mankind is to teach a false gospel. He died exclusively for God's Elect and saved them.

 

[Brightfame52]

Claims such as above, lacking any reference to support from scripture, are a diversion from bible studied edification.

1 John 2:2 says Jesus is the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity. 2 Peter 2:1 tells us Jesus bought even those heading for destruction.
Thus Christ died to provide the means of reconciliation for "all humanity," as He died as a ransom for all.

Every verse rewritten by Calvinism demonstrates they actually believe they are sovereign, and God just makes suggestions.

Here are their rewrites. No lost person ever seeks God. A natural (not born anew) person cannot understand any of the things of God. God did not choose individuals through faith in the truth. Many of the lost did not seek the narrow door. People entering the kingdom could not be prevented from going in because of irresistible grace. Faith is according to works.

I could go on and on...

Don't matter what scriptures you post, you post them without understanding, and doing so promote a false gospel. Christ died exclusively for His Sheep

 

[Van]

Don't matter what scriptures you post, you post them without understanding, and doing so promote a false gospel. Christ died exclusively for His Sheep

Yet another false claim, a denial of scripture, a refusal to accept the sovereignty of God.

Claims such as above, lacking any reference to support from scripture, are a diversion from bible studied edification.

1 John 2:2 says Jesus is the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity. 2 Peter 2:1 tells us Jesus bought even those heading for destruction. Thus Christ died to provide the means of reconciliation for "all humanity," as He died as a ransom for all.

Every verse rewritten by Calvinism demonstrates they actually believe they are sovereign, and God just makes suggestions.

Here are their rewrites. No lost person ever seeks God. A natural (not born anew) person cannot understand any of the things of God. God did not choose individuals through faith in the truth. Many of the lost did not seek the narrow door. People entering the kingdom could not be prevented from going in because of irresistible grace. Faith is according to works. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for NOT ALL, BUT ONLY FOR SOME.

There rewritten gospel is a gospel of futility, with no opportunity to change the outcome of our lives, or the lives of our loved one.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yet another false claim,

No its not

 

[Van]

No its not

Yet another false claim, a denial of scripture, a refusal to accept the sovereignty of God.

Claims such as above, lacking any reference to support from scripture, are a diversion from bible studied edification.

1 John 2:2 says Jesus is the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity. 2 Peter 2:1 tells us Jesus bought even those heading for destruction. Thus Christ died to provide the means of reconciliation for "all humanity," as He died as a ransom for all.

Every verse rewritten by Calvinism demonstrates they actually believe they are sovereign, and God just makes suggestions.

Here are their rewrites. No lost person ever seeks God. A natural (not born anew) person cannot understand any of the things of God. God did not choose individuals through faith in the truth. Many of the lost did not seek the narrow door. People entering the kingdom could not be prevented from going in because of irresistible grace. Faith is according to works. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for NOT ALL, BUT ONLY FOR SOME.

There rewritten gospel is a gospel of futility, with no opportunity to change the outcome of our lives, or the lives of our loved one.

 

[JonC]

Reading through these posts now.

Has anybody even suggested that God is not sovereign?

If so, I have not seen it here.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yet another false claim, a denial of scripture, a refusal to accept the sovereignty of God.

That's a false claim.

 

[Ascetic X]

@KenH said: If God "wants" all people that ever live to be saved, then all people that ever live will be saved. The creature is not stronger than the Creator.

***********

Some people think the sovereignty of God means the coerciveness of God. They think if God wants every soul to be saved, but many souls reject Him, that means God failed.

The truth is, the unrepentant individual is the one who fails. They fail to take advantage of the universal offering of salvation.

God wanted, and commanded, all Israel to obey the 10 commandments. The fact that some disobeyed does not mean they were stronger than God.

Hyper Calvinists who invented Limited Atonement say that Jesus died only for the “few there be that find it” folks. They also think God is disrespectful of man’s free will. They believe that God forces Himself upon a person because He has elected them.

But without voluntary choice, final judgment makes no sense. The unsaved man can simply claim that he never trusted in Christ to get saved because God did not violate his autonomy to force him to repent and believe.

Judgment necessarily is based on each person’s willful choice. Otherwise, humans are just robots programmed by God to either accept the gospel or reject it.

Jesus died for the sins of everyone, but atonement is potential and not applied to a specific individual unless they accept it.

Not one single verse in scripture says God only wants the elect to repent or that Jesus died only for the elect.


II Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[KenH]

The unsaved man can simply claim that he never trusted in Christ to get saved because God did not violate his autonomy to force him to repent and believe.

Romans 9:14-24
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

(emphasis mine)

 

[KenH]

Otherwise, humans are just robots programmed by God to either accept the gospel or reject it.

I'd rather be what some in false religion call, "God's robot", and be saved, than to have some alleged free will and go to hell.

 

[KenH]

Not one single verse in scripture says God only wants the elect to repent or that Jesus died only for the elect.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christ died on for God's elect, given to Him before the world began.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

 

[Ascetic X]

If there were God’s robots who were forced to repent, and be regenerated, there would be no rewards in heaven, for all subsequent good deeds from walking in the Light would also be forced and not free will acts of love.

I guess some people don’t want to obey God or choose to renew their minds. They are passive, perhaps unmotivated or weary. They want God to do everything, coerce them, while they relax and put forth no effort.

Sad state of pseudo Christianity.

 

[Ben1445]

You say "100% by grace" but then you say it is only if man does something. You are contradicting yourself.

If salvation is "100% by grace", (and it is), then salvation cannot be dependent on man doing something.

If salvation is dependent upon man doing something, (and it isn't), then salvation is not "100% by grace".

God's elect respond after they have been empowered by God; it is not that God's elect do something, and then God empowers them.

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.

Clearly by Ephesians 2, we are saved by grace through faith. The faith is there. And it is clear that the faith is not a work. It is clearly said that in spite of being through faith, salvation is not of works.
So is it the faith and belief that are God’s faith and what God believes? No where in Scripture is the faith of God implied. God doesn’t believe or have faith. God knows. It is much stronger an understanding than faith.
So clearly we are talking about men’s faith and it is not a work. For salvation, faith is the absence of work. It is to allow God to handle the entire responsibility of salvation. To make it any more complicated than this is to muddy the waters with worthless philosophy.

 

[Ben1445]

I'd rather be what some in false religion call, "God's robot", and be saved, than to have some alleged free will and go to hell.

If you’re a robot with no choice, it doesn’t matter what you think.
If you have a free will, why have you determined that you will use it to go to hell? Repent!

 

[Brightfame52]

The truth is, the unrepentant individual is the one who fails. They fail to take advantage of the universal offering of salvation.

The unrepentant person is under the control of the devil he needs to be saved from the devil and given repentance

 

[Ascetic X]

The unrepentant person is under the control of the devil he needs to be saved from the devil and given repentance

There is no such thing in true Christianity as being “given repentance”. We do not receive repentance. We perform it, we repent. And when we repent, then we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the new birth.