If God is Not Sovereign, Then There is No Grace

[Brightfame52]

There is no such thing in true Christianity as being “given repentance”

False Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

2 Tim 2:24-26
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Van]

That's a false claim.

1 John 2:2 says Jesus is the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity. 2 Peter 2:1 tells us Jesus bought even those heading for destruction. Thus Christ died to provide the means of reconciliation for "all humanity," as He died as a ransom for all.

Every verse rewritten by Calvinism demonstrates they actually believe they are sovereign, and God just makes suggestions.

Here are their rewrites. No lost person ever seeks God. A natural (not born anew) person cannot understand any of the things of God. God did not choose individuals through faith in the truth. Many of the lost did not seek the narrow door. People entering the kingdom could not be prevented from going in because of irresistible grace. Faith is according to works. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for NOT ALL, BUT ONLY FOR SOME.

There rewritten gospel is a gospel of futility, with no opportunity to change the outcome of our lives, or the lives of our loved one.

 

[DaveXR650]

2 Tim 2:24-26
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

It seems like you have both things at work here. God acting sovereignly, and men actually acting to "recover themselves". Maybe MacArthur was right.

In fact, if you read the whole chapter of 2 Timothy 2, you can make a pretty good case for synergism and the free will Baptists.

 

[Brightfame52]

1 John 2:2 says Jesus is the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity. 2 Peter 2:1 tells us Jesus bought even those heading for destruction. Thus Christ died to provide the means of reconciliation for "all humanity," as He died as a ransom for all.

Every verse rewritten by Calvinism demonstrates they actually believe they are sovereign, and God just makes suggestions.

Here are their rewrites. No lost person ever seeks God. A natural (not born anew) person cannot understand any of the things of God. God did not choose individuals through faith in the truth. Many of the lost did not seek the narrow door. People entering the kingdom could not be prevented from going in because of irresistible grace. Faith is according to works. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for NOT ALL, BUT ONLY FOR SOME.

There rewritten gospel is a gospel of futility, with no opportunity to change the outcome of our lives, or the lives of our loved one.

Christ died only for the elect.

 

[Brightfame52]

It seems like you have both things at work here. God acting sovereignly, and men actually acting to "recover themselves". Maybe MacArthur was right.

In fact, if you read the whole chapter of 2 Timothy 2, you can make a pretty good case for synergism and the free will Baptists.

No man can't act until God gives repentance, until then man is held captive by the devil

 

[DaveXR650]

No man can't act until God gives repentance, until then man is held captive by the devil

Sure. That is correct. But man's activity and man's responsibility are also in play.

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil,

Then they recover themselves. Both things are going on. Not to diminish one or the other.

 

[Van]

Christ died only for the elect.

Once again we have a Calvinist denying Christ "bought" those heading for destruction. The doctrines of disgrace rewrite the entire gospel, turning the good news into bad news.

 

[Van]

God does not give repentance, that is yet another Calvinist fiction, God allows or grants repentance to those He chooses not to harden.

 

[Ascetic X]

I am adjusting my position. We are to choose to repent, it is something we do. But God also gives repentance, by His divine favor, as an attitude in our heart. It seems to be mutual. Repentance is achieved by us obeying and by God working within us. We respond to the gospel and turn to the Lord in repentance and (simultaneously, prior, or afterwards) God inspires us to be repentant. We obey, God performs.

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We are commanded to choose to repent.

Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luke 13:5

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Luke 15:10

Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.

Matthew 11:20

Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent.

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God gives repentance.

Acts 5:31

God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

II Timothy 2:25

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

Again to teach Christ died for all mankind is to teach a false gospel. He died exclusively for God's Elect and saved them.

BF you are fighting against the word of God. Do you not understand what the Holy Spirit inspired John to write?

1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. BSB

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. NKJV

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. NASB

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. KJV

Did all these translations get it wrong BF? Your error is in you trusting what some man has told you rather than trusting what the word of God says. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.

 

[Van]

I am adjusting my position. We are to choose to repent, it is something we do. But God also gives repentance, by His divine favor, as an attitude in our heart. It seems to be mutual. Repentance is achieved by us obeying and by God working within us. We respond to the gospel and turn to the Lord in repentance and (simultaneously, prior, or afterwards) God inspires us to be repentant. We obey, God performs.
SNIP

God gives repentance.

Acts 5:31

God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

II Timothy 2:25

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

God granting or permitting or allowing us to repent is consistent with us taking the action, whether successfully or not.

Thus:

Acts 5:31 God exulted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to grant repentance (not prelude repentance0 to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Note similar wording in Mark 10:37 where God grants or allows someone to sit at his right hand. Or Acts 2:27 where God does not allow decay.

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they ]quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”

Again, God allowed the Gentiles to repent, He did not preclude it by hardening their hearts.

2 Timothy 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

And again, God with gentleness is allowing the misguided to choose to repent. Ask yourself why be gentile if repentance will be "imposed?"

No careful study will lead to God allowing repentance unless for His purposes, He hardens or allows to be hardened the hearts of the lost.

 

[Brightfame52]

Sure. That is correct. But man's activity and man's responsibility are also in play.

Then they recover themselves. Both things are going on. Not to diminish one or the other.

Yes they recover themselves after they were given repentance. But the key is God caused it by giving them repentance.

 

[Brightfame52]

Once again we have a Calvinist denying Christ "bought" those heading for destruction. The doctrines of disgrace rewrite the entire gospel, turning the good news into bad news.

That verse doesn't say Christ bought them in 2 Peter 2:1

When Peter wrote to them earlier he wrote specifically they were redeemed from their vain manner of life by redemption by the blood of Christ, a different Greek word and the blood is emphasized 1 Peter 1:18-19

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

So you need to prove that Peter has the same redemption in 2 Peter 2:1

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you are fighting against the word of God. Do you not understand what the Holy Spirit inspired John to write?

1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. BSB

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. NKJV

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. NASB

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. KJV

Did all these translations get it wrong BF? Your error is in you trusting what some man has told you rather than trusting what the word of God says. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.

1 Jn 2:2 is about the elect unless you are an universalist.

 

[Van]

That verse doesn't say Christ bought them in 2 Peter 2:1

When Peter wrote to them earlier he wrote specifically they were redeemed from their vain manner of life by redemption by the blood of Christ, a different Greek word and the blood is emphasized 1 Peter 1:18-19

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

So you need to prove that Peter has the same redemption in 2 Peter 2:1

Yes we have yet another example of Calvinism rewriting God's word, here ignorantly equating "ransom" with "redemption." I kid you not...

Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6.

The Calvinist even deny that Christ bought those heading for swift destruction, rewriting the text to read even denying the Master who Had NOT bought them.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes we have yet another example of Calvinism rewriting God's word, here ignorantly equating "ransom" with "redemption." I kid you not...

Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6.

The Calvinist even deny that Christ bought those heading for swift destruction, rewriting the text to read even denying the Master who DID NOT bought them.

Prove It's Christ blood in 2 Peter 2:1

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes we have yet another example of Calvinism rewriting God's word, here ignorantly equating "ransom" with "redemption." I kid you not...

Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6.

The Calvinist even deny that Christ bought those heading for swift destruction, rewriting the text to read even denying the Master who Had NOT bought them.

Christ blood redeems from destruction Ps 103:4

Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

He redeemed from a false religious life that leads to destruction 1 Peter 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

The word conversation is the Greek word anastrophē:

manner of life, conduct, behaviour, deportment

So your interpretation not biblical and dishonors the saving effects of the redemptive blood of Christ

 

[Ascetic X]

1 Jn 2:2 is about the elect unless you are an universalist.

Brightfame52 you accidentally proclaim universalism by claiming that “the whole world” is “the elect”. If the elect is the whole world, everybody in it, you got some universalism going on up in there.

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1 John 2:2

He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

********

Only a hyper-Calvinist would, to support their theology, deliberately negate the phrase “the whole world” by substituting “only the elect”.

 

[Brightfame52]

Brightfame52 you accidentally proclaim universalism by claiming that “the whole world” is “the elect”. If the elect is the whole world, everybody in it, you got some universalism going on up in there.

No I deny it and proclaim limited atonement, for propitiation denotes atonement, so the whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 must be limited to the ones atoned for, saved.

 

[Ascetic X]

No I deny it and proclaim limited atonement, for propitiation denotes atonement, so the whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 must be limited to the ones atoned for, saved.

You say “the whole world…must be limited to the ones atoned for, saved”… but that is not what the scripture specifically declares. Whole world cannot mean only part of the world.

The verse of 1 John 2:2 could have said “only the elect in the world”, but that is not what it says. You have to change it to fit hyper-Calvinism’s Limited Atonement theory.