Angels?

[th1bill]

Greetings th1bill. Hope and peace to you and yours.

I noticed Ben responded to your post. I thought that I would add a little more insight. I will use NKJV for this added comment...

Within Genesis 4:25 (above) we see the biblical text in NKJV English say "she bore a son". The Hebrew word used in the text is בֵּן (Strong's-H1121; bēn) which is most commonly translated "son" or "children/child". This word within Gen 4:25 is properly expressed by the English word "son" in most all translations, imo.

However, as we read further in Genesis 4:25, the NKJV then says, "For God has appointed another seed...". The Hebrew word that is translated to "seed" by NKJV is זֶרַע (Stong's-H2233; zeraʿ). This is not the same Hebrew word that is previously translated to "son" within Gen 4:25. This word, zeraʿ, according to Strong's means; seed; figuratively, fruit, plant, sowing-time, posterity:—x carnally, child, fruitful, seed(-time), sowing-time.

For this second Hebrew word, זֶרַע (Stong's-H2233; zeraʿ), various versions have translated it "offspring" (ESV), "seed" (KJV, NKJV, LSB), "child" (NASB20, NIV), and "son" (NLT).

IMO, "seed" is the more accurate representation of what the author meant due to the use of the same Hebrew word being used in Genesis 3:15, that is, זֶרַע (Stong's-H2233; zeraʿ).

The two English words "seed" found in Gen 3:15 is translated from the Hebrew word זֶרַע (Stong's-H2233; zeraʿ) which is the exact word used in Gen 6:25.

Peace to you brother

I see the usage now, thabks.

 

[Van]

It is difficult to determine whether the phrase "sons of God" found in Gen 6:2, Gen 6:4 and Job 1:6, Job 2:1 and Job 38:7 is used to refer to the same entities. In Job 38:7 the phrase seems to refer to angels as humans did not exist would God formed the world on Day 3 in the Genesis 1 account. However in Genesis 6:2 and 6:4, the phrase could refer to the godly line of descent from Adam to Jesus.

 

[th1bill]

It has been pointed out to me by a former pastor and friend of mine that I err in presenting evidence. The reason I used early in my walk with Christ is, however, correct. Angels are spirit beings, and "not given in marriage" seems to imply that they do not reproduce. Also, Yehovah God does not sin nor propitiate sin, and with His foreknowledge of events, if He gave an Angel human form, knowing he would capitulate with humans to produce super beings, He would be guilty of sin, God forbid! Angels cannot be found in human form under any circumstance that precludes the involvement of Yehovah. This should end such endeavors being considered as possible.

 

[Van]

It has been pointed out to me by a former pastor and friend of mine that I err in presenting evidence. The reason I used early in my walk with Christ is, however, correct. Angels are spirit beings, and "not given in marriage" seems to imply that they do not reproduce. Also, Yehovah God does not sin nor propitiate sin, and with His foreknowledge of events, if He gave an Angel human form, knowing he would capitulate with humans to produce super beings, He would be guilty of sin, God forbid! Angels cannot be found in human form under any circumstance that precludes the involvement of Yehovah. This should end such endeavors being considered as possible.

I have no idea what your position is.

Can angels manifest in human form. I believe scripture teaches Yes. See Gen 18:1-2 which refers to men, but when described in Gen 19:1 two were angels.

Does God allow His creations to autonomously sin? I believe scripture teaches Yes. Otherwise God would be the author of sin.

Were the "Niphilim" angels in human form, or extra large human what might be called giants? I believe scripture teaches No. They were perceived to be efficient warriors.

 

[th1bill]

Van, the OP.

 

[JD731]

Greetings again JD731. I hope your Sunday was a blessed one.

Thank you for your post and your dedication to the study of our Lord's word so that we might discover the great wonders of God's truth.

After a first read of your last post, post #15. I must admit, we appear to be far from the more direct evidences and truths of our topic (that being if angels can procreate with human women). I think that I see the path you are trying to show toward that topic, but it is a vague winding road, imo.

It seems to me that your current approach hinges around the concept that if "sons of God" denotes spiritual affiliation, as I say it does, then there can be no man, or human being of the time, given this moniker for they are all fallen and without the Holy Spirit within that only Christ can give. Therefore, it seems you are saying, "God takes a great hit" by saying "sons of God" are men.

I would remind you that we would not even know that angels existed at all if not for the scriptures record. I have not ever seen or heard one. Therefore we are restricted to all our information from the Divinely Inspired scripture record. God inspired Moses to write the history concerning what he wanted us to know about the first 2500 years. What Moses wrote was not a personal testimony but the testimony of God himself. His testimony included men and daughters of men, sons of God marrying those daughters and producing giants.

1 Corinthians 2:1:
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

Fortunately, he has given us the ability to reason and he has written much on these different subjects in a way that he can teach us because of the consistency of his word throughout the scriptures. He has instructed us that knowledge and revelation of truth comes from comparison of texts throughout the word.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So, here is my first encounter with the term.

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them (the men),
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they (the sons of God) took them wives of all which they chose.

Now I have to start comparing phases and words. I know from this practice that none of the great men of the OT times were ever referred to as sons of God. Not Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham, David and no one else except Adam before his fall. He was called the son of God here.

Lk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The next man to be called the son of God is Jesus Christ. Now that makes two men in the OT be be called the son of God. Both of these men were trinitarian. They were soul, body (physical) and the Spirit was in them. Neither of these men were sealed with the Spirit and were tested. The first son fell under the temptation of sin and immediately died spiritually. This does not mean the Spirit died but it means the Spirit separated himself from Adam and Adam died and the eternal connection with God was severed. From that point forward all who were born of Adam, which are all mankind, were spiritually dead. This means they did not die in order to be dead, they were never spiritually alive. That did not mean they were sinners but it does mean they were in the image of Adam, bipartite, soul and body, which can and will be separated at physical death. Since they do not have power over sin, the flesh, and the devil, all men sin. all men are condemned by God as sinners. Here is the only way a person can sin.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Here it is. Here is the progressive nature of sin.

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

So the second man, the Lord from heaven, a tri-partite man was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. He came into the world to save us from sin by suffering the penalty of sin, death, both spiritual and physical. As Adam did, so did he. First there was spiritual separation on the cross where Our Lord Jesus willingly went for us to pay the penalty of our sins.. Spiritual death is the separation of the Spirit from the body. Jesus Christ could not have died on that cross with the Spirit indwelling him because the Spirit is Life. He cannot die. At the noon hour Jesus cried, '"My god, my God, why hast thou forsaken me." This was spiritual death. At three o'clock, he died when his soul, the spiritual part of man, was separated from his body. Later his body was buried in a tomb and his soul went to paradise in the center of the earth where justified OT saints went, awaiting the cleansing of the blood.

Now, back to the seed of the woman in Ge 4. There was only one seed of the woman. The bloodline comes from the father and all the genealogies are reckoned from the man. There is no crossing from one of the three families of man, Shem, Ham, and Japheth because of this no matter how many interracial marriages you have. The seed is from the man. When Jesus was born of the woman he was not born into her bloodline but he was born into her family. He had no blood connection to Adam. God was his Father and his blood was not corrupted.One can see these truths here:

Ge 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

This seed clearly had a man involved. Mary, the virgin, would carry the seed and produced the Son without a man being involved.

We will deal more with the sons of God in my next post and speak about the irony of Jesus saying at the time of the end it would be like the days of Noah. They would be marrying and giving in marriage like before the flood until it came and consumed all but eight people. The subject here is marrying like before the flood and this informs me that some horrible things are coming on the earth soon.

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world (kosmos) to this time (the abomination of desolation), no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect s sake (Judah/Israel) those days shall be shortened.

That is a mouthful from our Lord but no one believes him. It will be worse than the flood judgement.

 

[Ben1445]

I would remind you that we would not even know that angels existed at all if not for the scriptures record. I have not ever seen or heard one. Therefore we are restricted to all our information from the Divinely Inspired scripture record. God inspired Moses to write the history concerning what he wanted us to know about the first 2500 years. What Moses wrote was not a personal testimony but the testimony of God himself. His testimony included men and daughters of men, sons of God marrying those daughters and producing giants.

1 Corinthians 2:1:
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

Fortunately, he has given us the ability to reason and he has written much on these different subjects in a way that he can teach us because of the consistency of his word throughout the scriptures. He has instructed us that knowledge and revelation of truth comes from comparison of texts throughout the word.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So, here is my first encounter with the term.

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them (the men),
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they (the sons of God) took them wives of all which they chose.

Now I have to start comparing phases and words. I know from this practice that none of the great men of the OT times were ever referred to as sons of God. Not Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham, David and no one else except Adam before his fall. He was called the son of God here.

Lk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The next man to be called the son of God is Jesus Christ. Now that makes two men in the OT be be called the son of God. Both of these men were trinitarian. They were soul, body (physical) and the Spirit was in them. Neither of these men were sealed with the Spirit and were tested. The first son fell under the temptation of sin and immediately died spiritually. This does not mean the Spirit died but it means the Spirit separated himself from Adam and Adam died and the eternal connection with God was severed. From that point forward all who were born of Adam, which are all mankind, were spiritually dead. This means they did not die in order to be dead, they were never spiritually alive. That did not mean they were sinners but it does mean they were in the image of Adam, bipartite, soul and body, which can and will be separated at physical death. Since they do not have power over sin, the flesh, and the devil, all men sin. all men are condemned by God as sinners. Here is the only way a person can sin.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Here it is. Here is the progressive nature of sin.

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

So the second man, the Lord from heaven, a tri-partite man was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. He came into the world to save us from sin by suffering the penalty of sin, death, both spiritual and physical. As Adam did, so did he. First there was spiritual separation on the cross where Our Lord Jesus willingly went for us to pay the penalty of our sins.. Spiritual death is the separation of the Spirit from the body. Jesus Christ could not have died on that cross with the Spirit indwelling him because the Spirit is Life. He cannot die. At the noon hour Jesus cried, '"My god, my God, why hast thou forsaken me." This was spiritual death. At three o'clock, he died when his soul, the spiritual part of man, was separated from his body. Later his body was buried in a tomb and his soul went to paradise in the center of the earth where justified OT saints went, awaiting the cleansing of the blood.

Now, back to the seed of the woman in Ge 4. There was only one seed of the woman. The bloodline comes from the father and all the genealogies are reckoned from the man. There is no crossing from one of the three families of man, Shem, Ham, and Japheth because of this no matter how many interracial marriages you have. The seed is from the man. When Jesus was born of the woman he was not born into her bloodline but he was born into her family. He had no blood connection to Adam. God was his Father and his blood was not corrupted.One can see these truths here:

Ge 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

This seed clearly had a man involved. Mary, the virgin, would carry the seed and produced the Son without a man being involved.

We will deal more with the sons of God in my next post and speak about the irony of Jesus saying at the time of the end it would be like the days of Noah. They would be marrying and giving in marriage like before the flood until it came and consumed all but eight people. The subject here is marrying like before the flood and this informs me that some horrible things are coming on the earth soon.

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world (kosmos) to this time (the abomination of desolation), no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect s sake (Judah/Israel) those days shall be shortened.

That is a mouthful from our Lord but no one believes him. It will be worse than the flood judgement.

It is an OT understanding that God is the Father of those who are His people.

John 8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

The OT Pharisees believed they were the sons of God. I don’t think they thought that they were themselves, angels.

I think the first error in logic is assuming that “sons of God” is a term instead of a collection of words to form a description.

 

[JD731]

It is an OT understanding that God is the Father of those who are His people.

John 8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

The OT Pharisees believed they were the sons of God. I don’t think they thought that they were themselves, angels.

I think the first error in logic is assuming that “sons of God” is a term instead of a collection of words to form a description.

Words are to be believed. When the words of Gen 6 were written only God knew if they were true. He said the result of the sons of God marrying the daughters of men were giants. The next time the sonsof God are mentoned is in the book of Job.

Here is what God said to Satan about Job.

Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Job was not at this meeting. The high praise that God gave to him seems as if anyone were a son of God it would be him. But he was not a son of God and he was not in the presence of the Lord with those who were. Men are not sons of God until they are born of the Spirit through faith in the Lord who died for us and rose afain from the dead.

 

[Ben1445]

Words are to be believed. When the words of Gen 6 were written only God knew if they were true. He said the result of the sons of God marrying the daughters of men were giants. The next time the sonsof God are mentoned is in the book of Job.

Here is what God said to Satan about Job.

Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Job was not at this meeting. The high praise that God gave to him seems as if anyone were a son of God it would be him. But he was not a son of God and he was not in the presence of the Lord with those who were. Men are not sons of God until they are born of the Spirit through faith in the Lord who died for us and rose afain from the dead.

It is clear in the book of Job that when the phrase is used, it is referring to angels. I have no disagreement with that explanation in Job. That doesn’t mean I accept it for every other book of the Bible.

 

[JD731]

It is clear in the book of Job that when the phrase is used, it is referring to angels. I have no disagreement with that explanation in Job. That doesn’t mean I accept it for every other book of the Bible.

Why not? How do you decide what part of the Bible you will believe?

 

[Ben1445]

Why not? How do you decide what part of the Bible you will believe?

Well, the same translators said that we are the sons of God.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

That must mean that we are angels right? Or don’t you believe that part of the Bible?
In my opinion, John, Paul, and Moses don’t use the description the same way as the writer of Job.

 

[JD731]

Well, the same translators said that we are the sons of God.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

That must mean that we are angels right? Or don’t you believe that part of the Bible?
In my opinion, John, Paul, and Moses don’t use the description the same way as the writer of Job.

Ben, the last thing I want to be is unkind or insulting to you but, being honest, there is no excuse for this kind of ignorance distrubuted in this post. All these sons of God in the NT have been born again of the Spirit of Christ when he was received as a permanent member of their persons based on their faith in the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ on the cross as the means to wash away their sins.

Here is the relationship of the disciples with Jesus Christ in Christs own words before the cross.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

This was spoken to his disciple in the upper room on the eve of his crucifixion.


Here are words spoken to these same men on the day of his resurrection from the dead after redemption, he said, was finished.

Jn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Here is the promise that this transaction is eternal.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Here is what this transaction did.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. The message of the whole Bible is the second birth. The Bible says we must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. The only way for anyone to be the son of God is to be created a son of God. . In this case there is a test and no one is sealed. Those who are created awith the presence of the Spirit can be separated and loose that relationship. Adam is the example. He was created with the Spirit. God had breathed the Spirit into his body and then tested him. He failed that one simple test and he lost the relationship as the son of God and became a sinner and under condemnation of eternal death.

The second man, the Son of God, did not sin. yet was tempted in all points like as we are and did not sin. He paid the penalty for our sins on the cross, death, and he poured out this Spirit, pictured as water at the cross, and anyone who comes to God by trusting personally in his sacrifice for them will be saved by receiving his Spirit as a permanent member of their person, never to leave or forsake them. This is the new birth and all who believes in him are sons of God.

This is a glorious truth and I trust him as my personal saviour and do not think there is any other way to be saved. Men, born of Adam are the only men who are candidates for salvation. There is no salvation for angels who fell.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

There were two men in the OT who had the Spirit and were sons of God. One fell and condemned the whole race and the last one gave up the Spirit to redeem the whole race and died and rose agin by the power of the Spirit because death could not hold him.

 

[Ben1445]

Ben, the last thing I want to be is unkind or insulting to you but, being honest, there is no excuse for this kind of ignorance distrubuted in this post.

You say you don’t want to and proceed as if you had not acknowledged what you are doing. I am putting forward points to consider. Calling them ignorant is hardly an answer worth giving. But I am not offended. I continue reading.

All these sons of God in the NT have been born again of the Spirit of Christ when he was received as a permanent member of their persons based on their faith in the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ on the cross as the means to wash away their sins.

Here is the relationship of the disciples with Jesus Christ in Christs own words before the cross.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

This was spoken to his disciple in the upper room on the eve of his crucifixion.


Here are words spoken to these same men on the day of his resurrection from the dead after redemption, he said, was finished.

Jn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Here is the promise that this transaction is eternal.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Here is what this transaction did.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. The message of the whole Bible is the second birth. The Bible says we must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. The only way for anyone to be the son of God is to be created a son of God. To be created a son of God means to be created a son of God . In this case there is a test and no one is sealed. Those who are created awith the presence of the Spirit can be separated and loose that relationship. Adam is the example. He was created with the Spirit. God had breathed the Spirit into his body and then tested him. He failed that one simple test and he lost the relationship as the son of God and became a sinner and under condemnation of eternal death.

The second man, the Son of God, did not sin. yet was tempted in all points like as we are and did not sin. He paid the penalty for our sins on the cross, death, and he poured out this Spirit, pictured as water at the cross, and anyone who comes to God by trusting personally in his sacrifice for them will be saved by receiving his Spirit as a permanent member of their person, never to leave or forsake them. This is the new birth and all who believes in him are sons of God.

This is a glorious truth and I trust him as my personal saviour and do not think there is any other way to be saved. Men, born of Adam are the only men who are candidates for salvation. There is no salvation for angels who fell.

So you would not consider OT Saints to be sons of God?

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Angels are not joined or given to be joined in marriage.
Leaving their habitation doesn’t mean making angel babies. You have to read that in there.

There were two men in the OT who had the Spirit and were sons of God. One fell and condemned the whole race and the last one gave up the Spirit to redeem the whole race and died and rose agin by the power of the Spirit because death could not hold him.

I disagree with your premise.
I do refer to OT saints as sons of God.
The Hebrews referred to themselves as the children of God. Sons are children. It is the same thing.

I find it somewhat hypocritical to apply the “term” sons of God, as you do, only in the OT, when the translators used the “term” in both Old Testament and New Testament.

Again, I disagree with the use of the phrase as a “term.”

 

[Paleouss]

So, here is my first encounter with the term.

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them (the men),
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they (the sons of God) took them wives of all which they chose.

Now I have to start comparing phases and words. I know from this practice that none of the great men of the OT times were ever referred to as sons of God. Not Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham, David and no one else except Adam before his fall. He was called the son of God here.

Lk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Greetings JD731. My apologies for my absence. I had come down with the flu and was out for a while.

I realize that our conversation is probably considered over, due to my absence. But after being able to read what you wrote to me the last time. I did want to make one minor point regarding your above quote. In Luke 3:38, the original Greek text doesn't actually say "which was [the son] of God".

The original Greek text actually says, word for word...

Σὴθ = of Seth
τοῦ = which was
Ἀδὰμ = of Adam
τοῦ = which was
Θεοῦ. = of God

So the words "the son" is not ever actually used in Luke 3:38. The Greek text simply says that Adam was "of God". Therefore in the actual Greek there is no phrase "son of God" that can be compared to Genesis 6:2,4.



Peace to you brother

 

[JD731]

You say you don’t want to and proceed as if you had not acknowledged what you are doing. I am putting forward points to consider. Calling them ignorant is hardly an answer worth giving. But I am not offended. I continue readinTThe

The word not intended to be pejorative but to indicate you lack of knowledge on the subject. You can believe and teach anything you want. I have given you several reasons why you cannot possibly be right in what you are teaching but I defend your right to teach it. I certainly do not want to argue about it seeing how God allows us free will to believe his words or to reject them.

So you would not consider OT Saints to be sons of God?

It would be impossible for any man in the OT to be a son of God when a son of God is Biblically defined as being born gain, except for the two men who actually were called the son of God in the OT. The work of God and the Son is the record of history of how God is accomplishing this relationship.

Jn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Angels are not joined or given to be joined in marriage.
Leaving their habitation doesn’t mean making angel babies. You have to read that in there.

That is not my argument.

The Hebrews referred to themselves as the children of God. Sons are children. It is the same thing.

Where do they claim that? The Hebrews claim they are the sons of Abraham, which they are.
God made the argument to them in Romans 9 that sons of Abraham does not equate to the Children of God. Here, read it for yourself.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children (of God): but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Note: all Hebrews are children of Abraham according to the flesh.
Note: Romans was written in AD 58. All the history of the NT through Acts 18 had passed. Those Hebrews who had trusted in and received Jesus Christ as their Messiah and Saviour had been born again as sons of God. The new birth is the only way a man of the flesh could become a son of God. Jesus Christ died in 30 AD to pay the sin debt and God would give his Spirit, who is eternal and who is Life, to all who trust in him. They are a new creature in Christ from that point.

I find it somewhat hypocritical to apply the “term” sons of God, as you do, only in the OT, when the translators used the “term” in both Old Testament and New Testament.

Again, I disagree with the use of the phrase as a “term.”

You do not know what it means to be saved and a son of God. That is why I used the word ignorant. You just don't know, but you can know but you must believe the words and honour context.

 

[Ben1445]

The word not intended to be pejorative but to indicate you lack of knowledge on the subject. You can believe and teach anything you want. I have given you several reasons why you cannot possibly be right in what you are teaching but I defend your right to teach it. I certainly do not want to argue about it seeing how God allows us free will to believe his words or to reject them.

It would be impossible for any man in the OT to be a son of God when a son of God is Biblically defined as being born gain, except for the two men who actually were called the son of God in the OT. The work of God and the Son is the record of history of how God is accomplishing this relationship.

Jn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

That is not my argument.

Where do they claim that? The Hebrews claim they are the sons of Abraham, which they are.

Psalms 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods;
and all of you are children of the most High.

John 8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

The teaching and the the fact that they knew it respectively.
Now who they are is a different story. But the Scripture is there.
But I am not merely speaking about being an Israelite. There were none in Genesis 6 anyway.

God made the argument to them in Romans 9 that sons of Abraham does not equate to the Children of God. Here, read it for yourself.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children (of God): but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Note: all Hebrews are children of Abraham according to the flesh.
Note: Romans was written in AD 58. All the history of the NT through Acts 18 had passed. Those Hebrews who had trusted in and received Jesus Christ as their Messiah and Saviour had been born again as sons of God. The new birth is the only way a man of the flesh could become a son of God. Jesus Christ died in 30 AD to pay the sin debt and God would give his Spirit, who is eternal and who is Life, to all who trust in him. They are a new creature in Christ from that point.

So what you are saying is that Genesis 6 sons of God are born again??

You are taking what I have said and turning a corner.
I have said that sons of God means different things to different writers. It is used differently in Genesis and Job and by John and Paul.

But now you are using a double standard. You want it to apply in one place but not in another. If it says sons of God, the translators are the same, the “term” is something you must be faithful to, based upon what you have told me.

But you don’t want to follow through on it.

You do not know what it means to be saved and a son of God.

I don’t think you have the corner on the market yourself.

That is why I used the word ignorant. You just don't know, but you can know but you must believe the words and honour context.

You don’t honor the words/term in the NT given by the same translators.

 

[JD731]

Greetings JD731. My apologies for my absence. I had come down with the flu and was out for a while.

I realize that our conversation is probably considered over, due to my absence. But after being able to read what you wrote to me the last time. I did want to make one minor point regarding your above quote. In Luke 3:38, the original Greek text doesn't actually say "which was [the son] of God".

The original Greek text actually says, word for word...

Σὴθ = of Seth
τοῦ = which was
Ἀδὰμ = of Adam
τοῦ = which was
Θεοῦ. = of God

So the words "the son" is not ever actually used in Luke 3:38. The Greek text simply says that Adam was "of God". Therefore in the actual Greek there is no phrase "son of God" that can be compared to Genesis 6:2,4.



Peace to you brother

I hope you are well. I too have been absent for a few days. I just answered one of your interesting points. My plan was to comment of some more of them.

Here, I will briefly answer this point.

We can know that Adam is the son of God in Lk 3:38 because God is renewing the original image of his human creation through a man who himself came into the world in the image of God, the son of God, Jesus Christ. How was he in the image of God and different than any other man? it was because the Spirit of God was in him and he was a tri-partite man, soul, body, and Spirit of God. When he poured his Spirit out on the cross it was so those who will believe would be made in his image, which is the image of God, by his Spirit who will both indwell them forever and wash them of their sins.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, (how?) by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Re 1:
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Three in one and one in three just as Adam was before his fall.

 

[JD731]

So what you are saying is that Genesis 6 sons of God are born again??

No, I am saying any created being that has the Spirit indwelling them is a called a son of God, hence Adam, a created tri-partite being, and the sons of God, who were created on the 4th day of creation.

Let me just say here that we know little about the dynamics of the pre-flood world. It was much different from our world today. I do not know very much and in my absence of knowledge I am just reduced to believing the words I am reading. I use the same dictionary for the Bible that I do for the newspaper. When the Bible says the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and Giants were born of them, I think of giants as big people. If the newspaper said some giants had been spotted in my neighbourhood, I would think someone saw some unusually big people. I am just going to believe that giants were uncommonly big people who came from the sons of God and daughters of men and corrupted the pre-flood world and caused it's destruction under the Divine hand of God.

We learn most of what we know about angels after the flood.