Songs and Christian Liberty

[Ben1445]

I did not start this thread.

 

[xlsdraw]

You continue to push your offensive behavior towards people that you know are offended by it. Curtesy around here is usually like “don’t start a thread like this for 20 days” or something like that. I know it wasn’t stated, but it is common sense curtesy.
You not only mentioned that what you are doing is offensive, but you called people who you knew would be offended to the thread. This is not having your liberty to yourself. This is exactly what Paul was teaching to not do.
But you are self-righteous. I don’t see why saying it a third time will help you acknowledge it.

He's been the "Christian Heckler" as long I have been on this forum. He knows exactly what he's doing and he's proud of it.

 

[xlsdraw]

Apologies will be accepted here on the thread and in the audience where the offense occurred.

A genuine apology will never happen. His track record is long.

 

[JonC]

A genuine apology will never happen. His track record is long.

You want me to apologize for saying that we are commanded not to judge the worship of other Christians, that Christ will make them stand??

You are correct. I will NEVER apologize for Scripture.

And yes, my track record is long (although not as long as I wished). I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and I am not ashamed of His Word. I am unapologetically Christian.

 

[JonC]

He's been the "Christian Heckler" as long I have been on this forum. He knows exactly what he's doing and he's proud of it.

No, I am not proud of reposting Scripture or pointing out when men fall short of obedience to God. That is nothing to be proud of as we have at times all fallen short.

But yes, I do know exactly what I am doing.

On the thread in question I was posting the Worship & Praise music many of us sing praising God in our church services.

On this thread I am insisting that Christians should be obedient to God even when their preferences lead them to be disobedient.


I am actually surprised that so many (actually, it is very few but still more than I thought we would have on a Christian board) support the idea that it is our role to condemb the worship of believers and call using the piano in church "satanic" by slandering anybody who objects.

Why do you believe Christians should remain silent when other professing Christians declare their worship "satanic" for using a piano to accompany hymns?

Why do you believe it is offensive to call out Christians who declare the worship of believers as rejected by God because it does not meet their preferences?

 

[JonC]

I did not start this thread.

But you should have.

As a Christian you should have spoken up for other believers being attacked by "Christians" saying they are satanic for using a paino to accompany their hymns.

As a Christian you should have spoken up when other "Christians" posted that God rejects the praise of believers who sing praise and worship music.

As a Christian you should have spoken up when a couple of members introduced (probably innocently on their part) 60 year old racist propaganda into their arguments.

As a Christian you should have pointed to God's Word as it relates to judging believers apart from what is written in Scripture.

But you didn't.

Instead you chose to attack me for defending Christians who use the piano and organ in worship.

Instead you chose to attack me for saying each church has the liberty to choose their style of worship and no Christian should condemn other believers for that choice.

Instead of standing for God's Word, Instead of encouraging believers in their worship (regardless of styles), instead of praising God that believers are worshipping Him with hymns, with praise music, with Latin music, with African music, with Middle Eastern music....whatever their musical traditions....you chose to join in condemning these children of God because their culture is different from your own.


There is little sadder than lukewarm Christians who lacks the spine to speak up when their brethren are attacked.

We have a Hispanic Baptist church down the road.
Yes, they sing songs using Hispanic music.
Yes, they use Hispanic instruments.
No, I cannot understand a word they are singing (I know some of the words when I recognize a tune).

But I will defend them against "Christians" who call their praise demonic or say God will not accept their worship until they adopt our traditional hymns.

 

[Charlie24]

No, I am not proud of reposting Scripture or pointing out when men fall short of obedience to God. That is nothing to be proud of as we have at times all fallen short.

But yes, I do know exactly what I am doing.

On the thread in question I was posting the Worship & Praise music many of us sing praising God in our church services.

On this thread I am insisting that Christians should be obedient to God even when their preferences lead them to be disobedient.


I am actually surprised that so many (actually, it is very few but still more than I thought we would have on a Christian board) support the idea that it is our role to condemb the worship of believers and call using the piano in church "satanic" by slandering anybody who objects.

Why do you believe Christians should remain silent when other professing Christians declare their worship "satanic" for using a piano to accompany hymns?

Why do you believe it is offensive to call out Christians who declare the worship of believers as rejected by God because it does not meet their preferences?

If those musicians in the video you posted had a heart for God they would be ashamed to present themselves in such manner.

But I can understand why they're not ashamed, you a professing believer in Christ can't even see it.

 

[Ben1445]

But you should have.

As a Christian you should have spoken up for other believers being attacked by "Christians" saying they are satanic for using a paino to accompany their hymns.

I did. See post 2 of the thread that prompted you to start yours.

As a Christian you should have spoken up when other "Christians" posted that God rejects the praise of believers who sing praise and worship music.

Considering I never got an answer to what we we talking about until the end of the thread, there was no point in answering until I had heard the matter out.
I didn’t engage everyone in the thread.

As a Christian you should have spoken up when a couple of members introduced (probably innocently on their part) 60 year old racist propaganda into their arguments.

I have no idea what you are talking about but go ahead, play the race card if that is all you have.

As a Christian you should have pointed to God's Word as it relates to judging believers apart from what is written in Scripture.

But you didn't.

I did and I quoted it to you. You ignore it because you are self righteous.

Instead you chose to attack me for defending Christians who use the piano and organ in worship.

We use piano and organ !
What are you blabbering on about??

Instead you chose to attack me for saying each church has the liberty to choose their style of worship and no Christian should condemn other believers for that choice.

I didn’t attack you. You have an inferiority complex that is showing up right now.
I told you that it is not right for Christians to say:

“@Ben1445 posted that he cannot not discern the difference between CWM (Praise) and secular rock music. That is fair as our ears are not tuned to genres that are foreign to us.

@Charlie24 posted that the Holy Spirit rejects the worship of Christians singing this music.

Others on this board describe praise and worship music as "satanic".

I thought it would be interesting to start a thread about this "worldly" and "demonic" rock music Baptists are using to worship God in vain.

The criteria is the songs posted have to be of actual CWM (worship and praise) as churches use (not at some concert or in some media format different from corporate worship).

So put in your ear plugs kiddos, fasten your seat belts...

This is nothing less than doing intentionally in someone’s face what they have told you they believe is sin.

It is not the discussion. It is the attitude that you post it with.

Instead of standing for God's Word, Instead of encouraging believers in their worship (regardless of styles), instead of praising God that believers are worshipping Him with hymns, with praise music, with Latin music, with African music, with Middle Eastern music....whatever their musical traditions....you chose to join in condemning these children of God because their culture is different from your own.

You don’t have any clear idea of what actually happened in that thread. I was yelled at for appearing to be on your side. But you are too self centered to notice.

There is little sadder than lukewarm Christians who lacks the spine to speak up when their brethren are attacked.

I have stood up for both sides being attacked. That is why you are upset with me. It is because I stood up for the conscience of those whose culture offends you.

We have a Hispanic Baptist church down the road.
Yes, they sing songs using Hispanic music.
Yes, they use Hispanic instruments.
No, I cannot understand a word they are singing (I know some of the words when I recognize a tune).

Praise the Lord for people who are Spanish and go to church. I don’t know what that has to do with this.

But I will defend them against "Christians" who call their praise demonic or say God will not accept their worship until they adopt our traditional hymns.

I didn’t see anyone call out a particular demographic as demonic.
Please show me what I missed.

 

[Ben1445]

If those musicians in the video you posted had a heart for God they would be ashamed to present themselves in such manner.

But I can understand why they're not ashamed, you a professing believer in Christ can't even see it.

There is a category of Christianity that is rich and increased with goods and has need of nothing. A Christianity that needs no correction. Revelation chapter three if I remember correctly. Clearly there is no such thing as a Christian who will not stand before God with correction to be made. Nadab and Abihu were just expressing themselves in their own ways.
Why should we expect that God will judge their expression of worship but not ours?

 

[Charlie24]

There is a category of Christianity that is rich and increased with goods and has need of nothing. A Christianity that needs no correction. Revelation chapter three if I remember correctly. Clearly there is no such thing as a Christian who will not stand before God with correction to be made. Nadab and Abihu were just expressing themselves in their own ways.
Why should we expect that God will judge their expression of worship but not ours?

Yes, the offering of strange fire.

 

[JonC]

I did. See post 2 of the thread that prompted you to start yours.


Considering I never got an answer to what we we talking about until the end of the thread, there was no point in answering until I had heard the matter out.
I didn’t engage everyone in the thread.


I have no idea what you are talking about but go ahead, play the race card if that is all you have.


I did and I quoted it to you. You ignore it because you are self righteous.


We use piano and organ !
What are you blabbering on about??


I didn’t attack you. You have an inferiority complex that is showing up right now.
I told you that it is not right for Christians to say:

This is nothing less than doing intentionally in someone’s face what they have told you they believe is sin.

It is not the discussion. It is the attitude that you post it with.


You don’t have any clear idea of what actually happened in that thread. I was yelled at for appearing to be on your side. But you are too self centered to notice.


I have stood up for both sides being attacked. That is why you are upset with me. It is because I stood up for the conscience of those whose culture offends you.


Praise the Lord for people who are Spanish and go to church. I don’t know what that has to do with this.



I didn’t see anyone call out a particular demographic as demonic.
Please show me what I missed.

I told you that I have absolutely no idea of your complaint. It made no sence to me.

1. The OP of that thread was concerned with using musical instruments in church. This, per the OP, made the worship "demonic".

It was a general statement. You sing a hymn accompanied by a piano? That is satanic.


2. Then it went to Christians who praise God using Worship & Praise music.

Members ridiculed these Christians by posting an absurd video clip and some "Christian Metalcore" song.

I stated that we should not condemn the praise of other Christians.

The response was that God rejects the worship of believers who use contemporary tunes.

Later it was decided that wearing a t-shirt while singing a hymn was blasphemous.

3. It then went to bring up racist propaganda (the same stuff I heard as a kid in the mid 70's...but a couple of decades older). I doubt the one who posted it meant it as racist, but that was its origins.

The idea is there is a "rock beat" that somehow controlls people. This came from the "African beat" which was demonic (never-mind Christians used that long before Western hymns were written). It was initially designed to degrade a race of people and prevent the integration of White and Black kids. The fear was that White people were loosing their culture.


But the first two were the claims I was mostly arguing against.

I do not believe a Christian has the right to declare another believers worship is rejected by God because their music is different.

I believe churches should worship God authentically - whether it is hymns, worship & praise, gospel music, Hispanic music....and they should not condemn the worship of one another.


That was ALL I was saying. And that is why I still do not understand your attack against me.

I do not know your complaint- except that you find it offensive that I said not to judge hpw others sing praises as Jesus will make them stand.

 

[JonC]

Yes, the offering of strange fire.

But if that is "strange fire" then wouldn't traditional hymns be "strange fire"?

Traditional hymns do not use the instruments God told Israel to use. The closest approximation we have is an acoustic guitar, a hand drum, and cymbals.

Traditional hymns introduce a standard meter and harmony, they sing rather than chant. Traditional hymns are not monophonic, the rhythm ans melody is not inseparable from the text.

Per your standard you offer "strange fire" that is unacceptable to God.

So what is the solution?

Do away with major and minor keys?
Stop using pianos and organs?
Stop with the harmony?
Stop with the Western singing?


@Charlie24

I get the criticisms. But you fo the exact same think you do not like with other Christians. You offer no solution.

If we just use traditional hymns, even if we ditch the piano and organ, it is still "strange fire" by your use.

We would have to ditch centuries of Western music theory, of culture, and try to adopt Ancient Near Eastern styles that are foreign to our experience.

You (and I) are too old for that. We are never going to be able to chant along with Eastern music.

 

[Charlie24]

But if that is "strange fire" then wouldn't traditional hymns be "strange fire"?

Traditional hymns do not use the instruments God told Israel to use. The closest approximation we have is an acoustic guitar, a hand drum, and cymbals.

Traditional hymns introduce a standard meter and harmony, they sing rather than chant. Traditional hymns are not monophonic, the rhythm ans melody is not inseparable from the text.

Per your standard you offer "strange fire" that is unacceptable to God.

So what is the solution?

Do away with major and minor keys?
Stop using pianos and organs?
Stop with the harmony?
Stop with the Western singing?


@Charlie24

I get the criticisms. But you fo the exact same think you do not like with other Christians. You offer no solution.

If we just use traditional hymns, even if we ditch the piano and organ, it is still "strange fire" by your use.

We would have to ditch centuries of Western music theory, of culture, and try to adopt Ancient Near Eastern styles that are foreign to our experience.

You (and I) are too old for that. We are never going to be able to chant along with Eastern music.

The solution, or at least a large portion of it is to keep the ungodly rock beat out of our sacred places.

 

[JonC]

The solution, or at least a large portion of it is to keep the ungodly rock beat out of our sacred places.

Except there is no such thing as an "ungodly rock beat". That was a claim over half a decade ago to guard White culture.

 

[Charlie24]

Except there is no such thing as an "ungodly rock beat". That was a claim over half a decade ago to guard White culture.

OK

 

[JonC]

OK

Kinda. It was not OK. It was horrible. The claims still linger (the "rock beat" thing) but typically not as racist as it once was. But it is OK in that it is history.


Why do you think a particular rhythm is satanic....and why is yours not?

 

[Charlie24]

Kinda. It was not OK. It was horrible. The claims still linger (the "rock beat" thing) but typically not as racist as it once was.

But it is OK in that it is history.

OK

 

[JonC]

OK

Why do you think a particular rhythm is satanic....and why is yours not?

I mean, I get you think the a beat somehow makes otherwise good kids rebel from their parents.

But why not yours? The IFB as a group is very much dying out. How do you know it is not the beat to which you subject the youth in your church? Maybe that beat made them rebellious.

 

[Ben1445]

I told you that I have absolutely no idea of your complaint. It made no sence to me.

That is because you don’t listen. The complaint has to do with doing what someone else ascribes to Satan with an in your face attitude.
The complaint is not about what music you like or what makes you sleepy.

1. The OP of that thread was concerned with using musical instruments in church. This, per the OP, made the worship "demonic".

It was a general statement. You sing a hymn accompanied by a piano? That is satanic.

Go back and read my post 2 of that thread.
The reason you are so confused is because you don’t listen.

2. Then it went to Christians who praise God using Worship & Praise music.

Members ridiculed these Christians by posting an absurd video clip and some "Christian Metalcore" song.

I stated that we should not condemn the praise of other Christians.

And I have been say that it is not right to put out an in your face thread that purports to draws attention to how you will continue to do what offends someone else’s conscience.
It is not about what your church does. It is about what you are doing in your thread.

The response was that God rejects the worship of believers who use contemporary tunes.

It is an opinion and part of the discussion. It is not what you did when you started your new thread.

Later it was decided that wearing a t-shirt while singing a hymn was blasphemous.

????

3. It then went to bring up racist propaganda (the same stuff I heard as a kid in the mid 70's...but a couple of decades older). I doubt the one who posted it meant it as racist, but that was its origins.

????

The idea is there is a "rock beat" that somehow controlls people. This came from the "African beat" which was demonic (never-mind Christians used that long before Western hymns were written). It was initially designed to degrade a race of people and prevent the integration of White and Black kids. The fear was that White people were loosing their culture.


But the first two were the claims I was mostly arguing against.

And these have nothing to do with the fact that you thought it would be a great idea to flaunt a behavior that is clearly what someone else calls sin.
Again I say, do you have liberty? Have it to yourself.

I do not believe a Christian has the right to declare another believers worship is rejected by God because their music is different.

But beyond belief and opinion, to do what is offensive in front of another believer is to put out a place for them to offend their own conscience.

I believe churches should worship God authentically - whether it is hymns, worship & praise, gospel music, Hispanic music....and they should not condemn the worship of one another.

You should also not condemn the conscience of another believer. God is able to make him stand as well.

That was ALL I was saying. And that is why I still do not understand your attack against me.

If you would read how ever many times I have said that the offensive behavior is not the music, but the attitude that says “I will do what you think is satanic in your face because I have liberty” and somehow you think that is a good thing.

I do not know your complaint- except that you find it offensive that I said not to judge hpw others sing praises as Jesus will make them stand.

Try reading again what I have been telling you all along.
You justify yourself by ignoring what I have continually told you is the offense.

 

[Charlie24]

Why do you think a particular rhythm is satanic....and why is yours not?

I mean, I get you think the a beat somehow makes otherwise good kids rebel from their parents.

But why not yours? The IFB as a group is very much dying out. How do you know it is not the beat to which you subject the youth in your church? Maybe that beat made them rebellious.

It troubles my spirit, it causes a disruption in my soul. I can feel it as it's happening and I know something is wrong.

It's not in my mind, it's felt in spirit and soul.