Songs and Christian Liberty

[JonC]

Yes, the offering of strange fire.

But if that is "strange fire" then wouldn't traditional hymns be "strange fire"?

Traditional hymns do not use the instruments God told Israel to use. The closest approximation we have is an acoustic guitar, a hand drum, and cymbals.

Traditional hymns introduce a standard meter and harmony, they sing rather than chant. Traditional hymns are not monophonic, the rhythm ans melody is not inseparable from the text.

Per your standard you offer "strange fire" that is unacceptable to God.

So what is the solution?

Do away with major and minor keys?
Stop using pianos and organs?
Stop with the harmony?
Stop with the Western singing?


@Charlie24

I get the criticisms. But you fo the exact same think you do not like with other Christians. You offer no solution.

If we just use traditional hymns, even if we ditch the piano and organ, it is still "strange fire" by your use.

We would have to ditch centuries of Western music theory, of culture, and try to adopt Ancient Near Eastern styles that are foreign to our experience.

You (and I) are too old for that. We are never going to be able to chant along with Eastern music.

 

[JonC]

We will all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (for the saved only) and we will answer for what we have done is this body, whether it be good or bad.

I want to enter into that Judgment as one who honored the Lord with all he had.

I as well.

Have you ever considered that people you think blasphemous for praising God wearing a nice t-shirt do not have a suit.

I do not have a suit (anymore).

It is not about money but being a good steward of our money. I am not going to go out and buy a suit to meet the world's expectations of success or power in order to worship God.

Why? Because my best is not the clothes that I wear.

I do not want the world to look at me as meeting their standard for success. I have no desire to be admired by the world.

 

[Charlie24]

But if that is "strange fire" then wouldn't traditional hymns be "strange fire"?

Traditional hymns do not use the instruments God told Israel to use. The closest approximation we have is an acoustic guitar, a hand drum, and cymbals.

Traditional hymns introduce a standard meter and harmony, they sing rather than chant. Traditional hymns are not monophonic, the rhythm ans melody is not inseparable from the text.

Per your standard you offer "strange fire" that is unacceptable to God.

So what is the solution?

Do away with major and minor keys?
Stop using pianos and organs?
Stop with the harmony?
Stop with the Western singing?


@Charlie24

I get the criticisms. But you fo the exact same think you do not like with other Christians. You offer no solution.

If we just use traditional hymns, even if we ditch the piano and organ, it is still "strange fire" by your use.

We would have to ditch centuries of Western music theory, of culture, and try to adopt Ancient Near Eastern styles that are foreign to our experience.

You (and I) are too old for that. We are never going to be able to chant along with Eastern music.

The solution, or at least a large portion of it is to keep the ungodly rock beat out of our sacred places.

 

[Charlie24]

I as well.

Have you ever considered that people you think blasphemous for praising God wearing a nice t-shirt do not have a suit.

I do not have a suit (anymore).

It is not about money but being a good steward of our money. I am not going to go out and buy a suit to meet the world's expectations of success or power in order to worship God.

Why? Because my best is not the clothes that I wear.

I do not want the world to look at me as meeting their standard for success. I have no desire to be admired by the world.

Ok, let's get it straight, Jon, there is no blasphemy in wearing a t-shirt to Church. I never said that!

The blasphemy is allowing Satan in the Church through his ungodly ways, such as the rock beat worship.

 

[JonC]

The solution, or at least a large portion of it is to keep the ungodly rock beat out of our sacred places.

Except there is no such thing as an "ungodly rock beat". That was a claim over half a decade ago to guard White culture.

 

[Charlie24]

Except there is no such thing as an "ungodly rock beat". That was a claim over half a decade ago to guard White culture.

OK

 

[JonC]

Ok, let's get it straight, Jon, there is no blasphemy in wearing a t-shirt to Church. I never said that!

The blasphemy is allowing Satan in the Church through his ungodly ways, such as the rock beat worship.

I am not superstitious. I reject that Satan has a rock beat. I do not subscribe to old wives tales.

This one I find particularly offensive because of its origin, but I know you do not mean it that way. You just dislike it so you call it satanic.

That is fine, I guess.

Your worship was called demonic because you use a piano.

And you are fine with others calling your praise satanic, so perhaps I should take a cue from you and simply allow it.

 

[JonC]

OK

Kinda. It was not OK. It was horrible. The claims still linger (the "rock beat" thing) but typically not as racist as it once was. But it is OK in that it is history.


Why do you think a particular rhythm is satanic....and why is yours not?

 

[Charlie24]

I am not superstitious. I reject that Satan has a rock beat. I do not subscribe to old wives tales.

This one I find particularly offensive because of its origin, but I know you do not mean it that way. You just dislike it so you call it satanic.

That is fine, I guess.

Your worship was called demonic because you use a piano.

And you are fine with others calling your praise satanic, so perhaps I should take a cue from you and simply allow it.

OK

 

[Charlie24]

Kinda. It was not OK. It was horrible. The claims still linger (the "rock beat" thing) but typically not as racist as it once was.

But it is OK in that it is history.

OK

 

[JonC]

OK

Why do you think a particular rhythm is satanic....and why is yours not?

I mean, I get you think the a beat somehow makes otherwise good kids rebel from their parents.

But why not yours? The IFB as a group is very much dying out. How do you know it is not the beat to which you subject the youth in your church? Maybe that beat made them rebellious.

 

[Ben1445]

I told you that I have absolutely no idea of your complaint. It made no sence to me.

That is because you don’t listen. The complaint has to do with doing what someone else ascribes to Satan with an in your face attitude.
The complaint is not about what music you like or what makes you sleepy.

1. The OP of that thread was concerned with using musical instruments in church. This, per the OP, made the worship "demonic".

It was a general statement. You sing a hymn accompanied by a piano? That is satanic.

Go back and read my post 2 of that thread.
The reason you are so confused is because you don’t listen.

2. Then it went to Christians who praise God using Worship & Praise music.

Members ridiculed these Christians by posting an absurd video clip and some "Christian Metalcore" song.

I stated that we should not condemn the praise of other Christians.

And I have been say that it is not right to put out an in your face thread that purports to draws attention to how you will continue to do what offends someone else’s conscience.
It is not about what your church does. It is about what you are doing in your thread.

The response was that God rejects the worship of believers who use contemporary tunes.

It is an opinion and part of the discussion. It is not what you did when you started your new thread.

Later it was decided that wearing a t-shirt while singing a hymn was blasphemous.

????

3. It then went to bring up racist propaganda (the same stuff I heard as a kid in the mid 70's...but a couple of decades older). I doubt the one who posted it meant it as racist, but that was its origins.

????

The idea is there is a "rock beat" that somehow controlls people. This came from the "African beat" which was demonic (never-mind Christians used that long before Western hymns were written). It was initially designed to degrade a race of people and prevent the integration of White and Black kids. The fear was that White people were loosing their culture.


But the first two were the claims I was mostly arguing against.

And these have nothing to do with the fact that you thought it would be a great idea to flaunt a behavior that is clearly what someone else calls sin.
Again I say, do you have liberty? Have it to yourself.

I do not believe a Christian has the right to declare another believers worship is rejected by God because their music is different.

But beyond belief and opinion, to do what is offensive in front of another believer is to put out a place for them to offend their own conscience.

I believe churches should worship God authentically - whether it is hymns, worship & praise, gospel music, Hispanic music....and they should not condemn the worship of one another.

You should also not condemn the conscience of another believer. God is able to make him stand as well.

That was ALL I was saying. And that is why I still do not understand your attack against me.

If you would read how ever many times I have said that the offensive behavior is not the music, but the attitude that says “I will do what you think is satanic in your face because I have liberty” and somehow you think that is a good thing.

I do not know your complaint- except that you find it offensive that I said not to judge hpw others sing praises as Jesus will make them stand.

Try reading again what I have been telling you all along.
You justify yourself by ignoring what I have continually told you is the offense.

 

[Charlie24]

Why do you think a particular rhythm is satanic....and why is yours not?

I mean, I get you think the a beat somehow makes otherwise good kids rebel from their parents.

But why not yours? The IFB as a group is very much dying out. How do you know it is not the beat to which you subject the youth in your church? Maybe that beat made them rebellious.

It troubles my spirit, it causes a disruption in my soul. I can feel it as it's happening and I know something is wrong.

It's not in my mind, it's felt in spirit and soul.

 

[Charlie24]

It troubles my spirit, it causes a disruption in my soul. I can feel it as it's happening and I know something is wrong.

It's not in my mind, it's felt in spirit and soul.

Brother if you can't tell the difference within, I'm afraid you have drifted to far in the world.

 

[JonC]

It troubles my spirit, it causes a disruption in my soul. I can feel it as it's happening and I know something is wrong.

It's not in my mind, it's felt in spirit and soul.

Have you considered that not all people are you?

The Christian Praise music we are discuing...I feel it in my spirit and soul as well. But differenty.

You listened to "How Great is Our God" and that video of "Amazing Grace". To you it did not feel right. To me, I felt God. I do not mean just emotional but in my mind as well.

I think if you and I listened to the praise used in the Bible we would both dislike it. It would not feel right because it is not right to us (we would have to develop an ear for that music...it is not our culture).


My caution is in condemning the worship of other believers because it would not be right for us to worship in that way.

We are talking about different timing in music. That is all. Your claim is that changing the timing of a song will make an otherwise great song satanic (like with Amazing Grace).

I am sorry, but I cannot but view that as superstition. I do understand that some timing may sound wrong to you.

BUT your hymns would sound wrong to a Near Eastern ear.


We do not need (and should not) adopt a worship style that is not authentic to us. That would not be worshipping in truth.

But we should not condemn the authentic praise of other believers. We should not insist they adopt our worship styles.

 

[JonC]

Brother if you can't tell the difference within, I'm afraid you have drifted to far in the world.

I can tell a difference within.

I worship in spirit and truth with contemporary praise music. It is authentic to me.

Hymns (I do not mean the lyrics but the music) is difficult. It is, to me, empty and inauthentic.

That is not a criticism of hymnal music. I would feel the same with the Near Eastern music of the Bible.

The difference is me. Praise should be authentic.

 

[Charlie24]

Have you considered that not all people are you?

The Christian Praise music we are discuing...I feel it in my spirit and soul as well. But differenty.

You listened to "How Great is Our God" and that video of "Amazing Grace". To you it did not feel right. To me, I felt God. I do not mean just emotional but in my mind as well.

I think if you and I listened to the praise used in the Bible we would both dislike it. It would not feel right because it is not right to us (we would have to develop an ear for that music...it is not our culture).


My caution is in condemning the worship of other believers because it would not be right for us to worship in that way.

We are talking about different timing in music. That is all. Your claim is that changing the timing of a song will make an otherwise great song satanic (like with Amazing Grace).

I am sorry, but I cannot but view that as superstition. I do understand that some timing may sound wrong to you.

BUT your hymns would sound wrong to a Near Eastern ear.


We do not need (and should not) adopt a worship style that is not authentic to us. That would not be worshipping in truth.

But we should not condemn the authentic praise of other believers. We should not insist they adopt our worship styles.

I received the same Spirit that you received. There is no difference.

When the subject comes up I will condemn it as long as the Lord gives me breath.

 

[JonC]

I received the same Spirit that you received. There is no difference.

The Spirit is the same, but we still have the "old self" with our cultural influences with us.

If you were speaking in the Spirit you would have simply said that you do not like the timing of that music, that you vould not worship in truth with that music, but that you praise God other believers do.

Same with me. I love reading hymns. But while we share the same Spirit I cannot worship with the traditiinal accompanying music. By the Spirit I praise God that you can.

I also prayed God that the Hispanic church praises God authentically with their music (although it is chaotic to my ears).


When you cross the line in condemning the praise of other believers then you know the spirit from which that arose was not God's.

 

[Charlie24]

The Spirit is the same, but we still have the "old self" with our cultural influences with us.

If you were speaking in the Spirit you would have simply said that you do not like the timing of that music, that you vould not worship in truth with that music, but that you praise God other believers do.

Same with me. I love reading hymns. But while we share the same Spirit I cannot worship with the traditiinal accompanying music. By the Spirit I praise God that you can.

I also prayed God that the Hispanic church praises God authentically with their music (although it is chaotic to my ears).


When you cross the line in condemning the praise of other believers then you know the spirit from which that arose was not God's.

I think we should continue worshiping the Lord the way we see fit. That is the American way, the foundation of our Constitution.

I'm sorry we can't agree on this, Jon. I think you know me well enough to know I meant no harm to you.

 

[JonC]

I think we should continue worshiping the Lord the way we see fit. That is the American way, the foundation of our Constitution.

I'm sorry we can't agree on this, Jon. I think you know me well enough to know I meant no harm to you.

Oh...I know you meant no harm, and no harm done. I reply honestly and expect the same in return as I respect you.

If you believed exactly as me it would be boring. You would be right, but it would be boring.


You mention us having the same Spirit. We do, and that matters. Those Christians God told not to condemn other believers also had the same Spirit.

And those Christians who believe your worship to be satanic for using a piano share the same Spirit.

That is the important part. Be fully convinced in your mind. Know we are of the same Spirit. Do not condemn other believers.