Go out in Jesus Name

[Charlie24]

If you don't understand this, Cathode, the Protestant will always be a mystery to you.

We are all excited when we get saved, got to tell someone or bust.

I remember when my Dad was saved at 75, the next day he talking to the neighbors telling them he was going to Church and was saved. He invited them to come to Church telling them he had never felt so free.

I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with one of the neighbors. Exactly the opposite of he used to be with people. I knew there on the spot the faith was real.

After the initial thrill of salvation we tend to begin leaning on the flesh, this is where Paul's letters are so vital for the believer. Not just reading them but understanding them. Reading them over and over and letting the Holy Spirit speak to us in how to "walk in the Spirit."

 

[Cathode]

The problem I see in Cathode's post and can't agree with it is that it teaches faith + works = salvation.

"For are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any should boast."

Cathode is placing James and Paul at odds with one another on works, that is not what is happening.

You are separating Faith and works. It’s Faith acting through Love, the doing is part of faith by Grace.

You show Faith by Love, they can’t be separated if it’s a saving Faith.

Faith without Love is dead. No salvation without Love because God is Love and there is no Heaven without God. God is a constant work of Goodness, He sustains existence to the last sub atomic particle.

 

[Charlie24]

You are separating Faith and works. It’s Faith acting through Love, the doing is part of faith by Grace.

You show Faith by Love, they can’t be separated if it’s a saving Faith.

Faith without Love is dead. No salvation without Love because God is Love and there is no Heaven without God. God is a constant work of Goodness, He sustains existence to the last sub atomic particle.

No Cathode, If you don't understand anything I've said, understand this.

I am separating works from faith in the initial salvation that saves the soul.

Faith and repentance is where our salvation lies, but the faith is a submitting faith to Christ, strong in works AFTER the initial salvation by grace through faith.

 

[Cathode]

Paul tells us straight out that works have nothing to do with our salvation.

James is explaining the quality of the of the faith that saves.

The quality of faith that submits to the Holy Spirit and allows fruits to be produced through a working faith.

Paul is telling you flat out that Faith without Love amounts to nothing. Love isn’t just a feeling, it’s doing.

This is why charity died in Germany after Luther’s Faith alone teaching. No one gave to the poor, took care of hungry or any charity. They believed that Faith alone was sufficient. Germany became a hellhole for the poor.
This is when Luther started the welfare state. To force by taxation what was formerly given by Love to charity.

 

[Charlie24]

Paul is telling you flat out that Faith without Love amounts to nothing. Love isn’t just a feeling, it’s doing.

This is why charity died in Germany after Luther’s Faith alone teaching. No one gave to the poor, took care of hungry or any charity. They believed that Faith alone was sufficient. Germany became a hellhole for the poor.
This is when Luther started the welfare state. To force by taxation what was formerly given by Love to charity.

Man is naturally depraved from the Fall, he can have no Godly love or express it in any way, until AFTER he believes and is born anew.

The initial faith that Paul is speaking of is purely faith in Christ Jesus, the Godly love that accompanies faith is after salvation.

 

[Psalty]

Exactly. Grace prompts us to compassion.

Faith, Hope, Love all by Grace.

“ And moved with compassion Jesus reached out His hand “

We are moved to compassion by Grace.

But Grace prompts us, it doesn’t force us or turn us into automatons.

You drive down a road and see someone in dire need as you drive by. Grace prompts you and you look back in your rear vision mirror weighing the decision. But you are in a rush to an important meeting, and you drive on much lesser a Christian than you thought you were. Reasoning that someone else will stop and help them


The thief on the Cross did do a good work. He defended and witnessed to Jesus innocence as opposed to his own guilt.

This was a great work of love considering it was with his dying breathes.

“ He who witnesses to me before men, I will witness to him before my Father in Heaven “

I would not consider that a work myself. By that definition just speaking is a work. I think by this definition of works, a VAST amount of non Catholics would agree with you.

Most people in my circles would consider works equal to good deeds: living well, giving, hospitality, helping others.

Testifying is good, but this is simply a verbalization of faith.

Works or deeds is seen well in Titus:

Our people must also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, so that they will not be unfruitful.— Titus 3:14

Deeds here is the same as in James where he says faith without works is dead.
In Gk it is: ergon: 1. Work, task, employment. 2. A deed, action.
I dont think you can make the case that what the thief on the cross said was a work, doesnt fit the grammar, imho.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 1430 GMT 830 am EST - 530 am PST

 

[Cathode]

No Cathode, If you don't understand anything I've said, understand this.

I am separating works from faith in the initial salvation that saves the soul.

Faith and repentance is where our salvation lies, but the faith is a submitting faith to Christ, strong in works AFTER the initial salvation by grace through faith.

“ Faith working through Love “ as Paul states.

When you try to separate Faith and works, you are trying to separate Faith from Love. Can’t do that.

I know exactly the Protestant beliefs and it is wrong.

 

[Charlie24]

“ Faith working through Love “ as Paul states.

When you try to separate Faith and works, you are trying to separate Faith from Love. Can’t do that.

I know exactly the Protestant beliefs and it is wrong.

If you can't understand that before being born-again there can be no Godly love in man, and that man is saved by faith and repentance alone, I would say you're a Catholic. One that must work his way to heaven, seeking the other Door that Christ spoke of.

 

[Cathode]

I would not consider that a work myself. By that definition just speaking is a work. I think by this definition of works, a VAST amount of non Catholics would agree with you.

Most people in my circles would consider works equal to good deeds: living well, giving, hospitality, helping others.

Testifying is good, but this is simply a verbalization of faith.

Try it when you are suffocating on the Cross. That’s what crucifixion does, slow suffocation and you have to push yourself up on nailed feet to breathe let alone speak.

Believe me the thief’s witnessing to Jesus innocence was a great work of Love.

 

[Psalty]

If you can't understand that before being born-again there can be no Godly love in man, and that man is saved by faith and repentance alone, I would say you're a Catholic. One that must work his way to heaven, seeking the other Door that Christ spoke of.

I dont think that is true. Cornelius loves God in Acts 10. There are more, but this is enough for our purposes.

 

[Charlie24]

I dont think that is true. Cornelius loves God in Acts 10. There are more, but this is enough for our purposes.

Cornelius believed God and loved him, but he was not saved because he didn't know his salvation was in Christ, the reason God sent Peter to him.

But you are technically correct. Although I'm speaking of the natural man that did not know God as Cornelius.

 

[Cathode]

If you can't understand that before being born-again there can be no Godly love in man, and that man is saved by faith and repentance alone, I would say you're a Catholic. One that must work his way to heaven, seeking the other Door that Christ spoke of.

Well, try getting to heaven without showing Love, just by faith alone, it will amount nothing no matter how big the faith.

That’s the dead faith Paul and James are talking about.
The faith of mere intellectual assent.

“ What you didn’t do for the least of these, you didn’t do for me “

On what basis did they expect to be saved, faith alone ?

 

[Charlie24]

Well, try getting to heaven without showing Love, just by faith alone, it will amount nothing no matter how big the faith.

That’s the dead faith Paul and James are talking about.
The faith of mere intellectual assent.

“ What you didn’t do for the least of these, you didn’t do for me “

On what basis did they expect to be saved, faith alone ?

You still don't understand that Love is a byproduct of the faith that saves.

 

[Charlie24]

You still don't understand that Love is a byproduct of the faith that saves.

Where does love come from?

Rom. 5:5

"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

 

[Charlie24]

Where does love come from?

Rom. 5:5

"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

Would you agree that the Love of God comes from being born-again through the indwelling Holy Spirit?

 

[Cathode]

Would you agree that the Love of God comes from being born-again through the indwelling Holy Spirit?

You must have Faith and Love together not Faith alone, that is false.

Faith is necessary, but it must be working through Love, which means Faith can not be alone.

Only dead Faith is alone. Do understand what James and Paul are saying?

 

[Charlie24]

You must have Faith and Love together not Faith alone, that is false.

Faith is necessary, but it must be working through Love, which means Faith can not be alone.

Only dead Faith is alone. Do understand what James and Paul are saying?

Of course I understand what they are saying, I've already explained it.

I separate works from my faith that saved me (my initial salvation), and then those works are proving my submission to Christ by producing fruits that have been planned and organized for me by the Holy Spirit.

I live my life guarding my faith, without that faith the Holy Spirit cannot operate.

When I see a door open I walk through it. It could be the opportunity for me to witness to a lost soul that the Holy Spirit set up, placing us at the same place and time.

It could be a anyone who needs help financially and through my obeying the Holy Spirit that person could hear the Gospel and be saved.

That is fruit credited to me although it was all the Lord's work, I just walked through the open door when I seen it.

 

[Cathode]

People found a note on a Protestant guy who jumped from a tower saying not to worry, he was assured that he was saved by faith.

Tragic. He sinned against Hope, despaired of his life.

Three things remain Faith, Hope and Love, the greatest of these is Love.
Love is Eternal and greater than Faith.

All three of these are necessary, not Faith by itself.

 

[Charlie24]

People found a note on a Protestant guy who jumped from a tower saying not to worry, he was assured that he was saved by faith.

Tragic. He sinned against Hope, despaired of his life.

Three things remain Faith, Hope and Love, the greatest of these is Love.
Love is Eternal and greater than Faith.

All three of these are necessary, not Faith by itself.

I agree all of that is needed and will be supplied by faith.

But all of that comes AFTER we are saved by grace through faith alone.

I have shown you before in one of our conversations how our salvation is either works or faith it can't be both.

Do you remember the Scripture where works cancels out Grace, and Grace cancels out works for our salvation?