Jesus Christ - God Incarnate - Lamb of God ... ALWAYS the plan, or just a patch after the fall?

[atpollard]

Edit: Additionally, your Father doesn’t have a Type B child, because on your system He converts them to a Type A child.

I am beating a dead horse at this point, but the “A” & “B” analogy was about God creating Adam (not all people) and was created to address the specific question about whether God created Adam predestined to sin. It does NOT apply to all people (we are not a specific act of divine creation like Adam).

Under my system, nobody becomes “perfect” in obedience (a Type A child) until they die and are glorified. That isn’t even a “Calvinist” thing, just a non-Pelagian thing (no sinless perfection in this life).

 

[Psalty]

I am beating a dead horse at this point, but the “A” & “B” analogy was about God creating Adam (not all people) and was created to address the specific question about whether God created Adam predestined to sin. It does NOT apply to all people (we are not a specific act of divine creation like Adam).

Under my system, nobody becomes “perfect” in obedience (a Type A child) until they die and are glorified. That isn’t even a “Calvinist” thing, just a non-Pelagian thing (no sinless perfection in this life).

Actually it does, because then after the Fall the God you are talking about now Creates humans unable to respond to Him. They are now type A in unbelief, and then the ones that are saved are done so effectually and so even the type B’s become type A.

I will go through your other post a bit later, but the big deal is that your God sends people to hell because He does not love them the same. My God send them to Hell because they rejected Him and want nothing to do with Him.

 

[Ben1445]

Yes, in theory. In reality, we know that Adam DID SIN. The fact that Adam DID means that Adam COULD [it is self evident that if Adam “could not” sin, then there would have been no fall].

Therefore, the only real alternative to what DID HAPPEN (Adam COULD and DID sin) would be for God to create an Adam that COULD NOT sin (in which case mankind WOULD NOT have fallen from Eden). God did not create an Adam incapable of sin, did He?

The argument for a “could sin” but “does not sin” is the essence of Pelagianism (which is false by virtue of the fact that 100% of all people “do sin” … making “does not sin” a hypothetical myth).

The only thing that I am challenging is that God only had two choices. Just because you can only figure two and others can figure three doesn’t make any changes to how many options God has.
In reality, what you are doing is saying that there are only allowed to be two options, the two you like, but we all know that all men are sinners, so to say that God could have made man to not sin is the same as saying almost anything else that didn’t happen.
I don’t care what you call any other idea. The fact that the hypothetical has been entered into gives room for wider speculation than what you allow.

 

[Psalty]

Just for the record, does your God decide who to save? [Does Ephesians 2:8-9 apply to your God or just the “Calvinist” God?]

Yes, He saves those that believe in Him. And He loves even those that He sends to Hell. This is different than Calvinist God who only saves those He truly loves, and does not live those He sends to hell.

Did your God create them both or is only the “Calvinist” God the great creator?

Yes, He created them both and loves them both equally, desiring neither to go to Hell.

Does your God send people to hell, or is that only the “Calvinist” God that condemns sinners to the “second death”?

Yes, those that reject His gracious gift of Grace He sends to Hell, not because He wants them there but because they have no grace to satisfy His justice.

Does your ‘god’ save everybody (universalism) or are we (human beings) just more moral than the God of “Calvinism” and the Bible that saves His sheep and condemns the goats?

He saves all those that through faith in Jesus accept the grace offered by His son. It is only the God of Calvinism that has pre-ordained some to be saved and some to Hell.

I am just checking since you make it seem like the non-Calvinist god rejects Biblical teaching on Judgement and Hell.

No, I only reject How the God of Calvinism sends them there because according to the systematic, and what we find scripture saying about what both Justice and Love are:
1. He is not perfectly loving according to His own scriptures
2. He is not perfectly just according to His own scriptures

 

[Brightfame52]

Oh Boy, that's a total and complete misunderstanding of the Word of God.

Thats you. Its as plain as the noon day sun that God had predetermined that Christ would redeem a people from sin before Adam was ever created 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Do you understand what foreordained means before the foundation of the world ? Now the word redeem lutroó:

3084 lytróō (cognate with 3083/lytron, "a ransom-price") – properly, to release (set free) by paying the full ransom; "to release, on receipt of ransom" (Vine); (figuratively) to restore "something back, into the possession of its rightful owner – i.e. rescuing from the power and possession of an alien possessor" (Wm. Barclay).

So Adam had to disobey to be in alignment with what God had already foreordained with Christ before the foundation.

 

[Ben1445]

Thats you. Its as plain as the noon day sun that God had predetermined that Christ would redeem a people from sin before Adam was ever created 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Do you understand what foreordained means before the foundation of the world ? Now the word redeem lutroó:

3084 lytróō (cognate with 3083/lytron, "a ransom-price") – properly, to release (set free) by paying the full ransom; "to release, on receipt of ransom" (Vine); (figuratively) to restore "something back, into the possession of its rightful owner – i.e. rescuing from the power and possession of an alien possessor" (Wm. Barclay).

So Adam had to disobey to be in alignment with what God had already foreordained with Christ before the foundation.

We all know that Jesus and anyone who believes in Him have an expectation.
We don’t see anywhere that an individual or group of individuals are predestined without their being in Christ.
I believe Scripture. Any means any at all, not just reformed approved.

Luke 14:22
And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

There is still room. For the people who you reject. God is able to make them stand, even though you think He doesn’t love them.

 

[Aaron]

It is about JESUS. The core issue is whether Jesus was ALWAYS the centerpiece of God's creation plan (in which case, every action points towards Jesus) or God intended Adam and Eve to NOT SIN and Jesus is a "fix" for a broken creation.

By focusing on Adam and Eve and ignoring Jesus the Christ, we are nibbling around the crust of the sandwich and refusing to take a bite out of the MEAT that IS the sandwich.

However, you wanted a "direct answer" so here goes:

Q1: Do I believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world for Adam and Eve to have free will?
Direct Response: Yes, God created Adam and Eve with Free will; therefore it was part of God's plan.

Going Deeper:
What is "free will"? It is merely the ability to choose from among possible options. It is not "perfect". It is not "unbiased". It is not "immune to outside influences". It is not free from "human nature". "For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world." - [1 John 2:16 NLT] The "free will" of Adam and Eve were subject to influence by all of these ..."The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too." - [Genesis 3:6 NLT]

Q2: Do I believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world for Sin and eat the apple?
Direct Response: Yes.

Going Deeper:
Do YOU believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world to redeem for himself a people FROM sin through the incarnation, death and resurrection of God the Son (second person of the trinity)? If that was always God's (Father-Son-Spirit) plan, goal and heart's desire, then the FALL was always part of the MEANS to God's ends. "You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people." - [Genesis 50:20 NLT] We see events in one way, but God controls the narrative of the story towards His goals [which are always infinitely GOOD].

I haven't read the rest of the thread, so apologies if this was already touched on.

Yes, it was always the plan. God did not have one plan for an unfallen humanity, and a secondary plan for fallen humanity. The Cross was always the plan.

The creation of the Seventh Day foreshadowed the Rest that Christ would earn for us by His death on the Cross.

For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, "In my anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter my place of rest,'" even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: "On the seventh day God rested from all his work." But in the other passage God said, "They will never enter my place of rest." So God's rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. [Hebrews 4:3-6 NLT]​

 

[Brightfame52]

We all know that Jesus and anyone who believes in Him have an expectation.

You started off not making sense to me

 

[Aaron]

It was always God's plan to exalt the Son, and to give Him all power and authority with a Name above all names.

And no one can become a high priest simply because he wants such an honor. He must be called by God for this work, just as Aaron was. That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest.​

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No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father."​

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And in another passage God said to him, "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."​

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While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. Even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.​

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In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. [Hebrews 5:4-9 NLT]​

Christ's Sonship—His eternal Sonship (not to be confused with the Incarnation)—is His calling to Priesthood. His Incarnation in the likeness of sinful flesh qualified Him.

Being a priest means that one is required to make an offering. And since every high priest is required to offer gifts and sacrifices, our High Priest must make an offering, too. [Hebrews 8:3 NLT]

But God is not pleased with the blood of bulls and goats.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. ​

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Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. ​

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Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. ​

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He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [Hebrews 10:5-10 KJV]​

 

[Aaron]

Eternally, the Son was destined to become High Priest and to offer His body for sins.

 

[Psalty]

Eternally, the Son was destined to become High Priest and to offer His body for sins.

Yes, the question is though, does that mean God had to ordain the fall?
A) yes, says the calvinist; He had to decree it
B) no, says the non calvinist; He only foreknew it

 

[Aaron]

Yes, the question is though, does that mean God had to ordain the fall?
A) yes, says the calvinist; He had to decree it
B) no, says the non calvinist; He only foreknew it

If His Priesthood and Sonship are one and the same, and He has always been the unique, or only begotten (which has nothing to do with His incarnation) Son,...

And if it is required of a priest to make sacrifices on the behalf...

Then it is required that our Priest have a body to sacrifice...

And that is why the world was made. To be the stage on which the Son would make His offering.

Christ was not ordained to become High Priest because God knew there would be a Fall, Christ was ordained to become High Priest because of Who He is. And the world was made for that to be worked out. So, yes, God sent the lying spirit into the Garden to achieve a that purpose, just as He sent a lying spirit into the mouths of the prophets of Baal to coax Ahab to go to war.

 

[Psalty]

Its one thing to send a lying spirit to judge a wicked king.

Its quite another thing to send a lying spirit to deceive your own INNOCENT children to sin so that You end up hating them.

Im shocked you chose to Go with that option as an answer!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We need to be clear that no one is forced or persuaded by God to sin.
James 1:13-14. 'Let no one say when he is being tempted, "I am tempted by God." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.'
God did not make millions of little Stepford wives; rather, He made mankind with free will, but He forsaw that men and women would quickly be drawn away into sin and come under His righteous anger and judgment. Therefore, in His love and mercy, He chose a vast number of people (Rev. 9:7) to be saved, and gave them to the Lord Jesus (John 6:39; 10:29; 17:24 etc.) to redeem by satisfying His justice on the cross.

Some folk here seem to think He should have done things differently, but they will have to take that up with Him when they meet Him.

 

[Psalty]

We need to be clear that no one is forced or persuaded by God to sin.
James 1:13-14. 'Let no one say when he is being tempted, "I am tempted by God." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.'
God did not make millions of little Stepford wives; rather, He made mankind with free will, but He forsaw that men and women would quickly be drawn away into sin and come under His righteous anger and judgment. Therefore, in His love and mercy, He chose a vast number of people (Rev. 9:7) to be saved, and gave them to the Lord Jesus (John 6:39; 10:29; 17:24 etc.) to redeem by satisfying His justice on the cross.

Some folk here seem to think He should have done things differently, but they will have to take that up with Him when they meet Him.

Right, the Calvinist view is that God decrees whatsoever comes to pass:

He creates the world, and loves them until they sin.
After that He only decides to continue loving some of them.

You are welcome to take that as a structure, but its not biblical for being a consistent God of Love or Justice

 

[Aaron]

Its one thing to send a lying spirit to judge a wicked king.

Its quite another thing to send a lying spirit to deceive your own INNOCENT children to sin so that You end up hating them.

Im shocked you chose to Go with that option as an answer!

Is it any better to let a lying spirit in to TEST your own INNOCENT children, knowing they would be corrupted? There's no difference.

Focus on what the Scriptures say. You quoted them yourself. The world was made for Christ. For the Redeemer. Not merely the Son. I think you're shocked because it's revealed that man is not the center of God's will and purpose after all. It is and always has been His Son.

To say that the ordination of Christ as High Priest was due to the foreknowledge of sin, instead of by virtue of His Identity, is to make man the center of His will and purpose, and His Son subservient.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Right, the Calvinist view is that God decrees whatsoever comes to pass:

He creates the world, and loves them until they sin.
After that He only decides to continue loving some of them.

You are welcome to take that as a structure, but its not biblical for being a consistent God of Love or Justice

I don't believe that God will send anyone He loves to hell. You can belive that if you want, but that seems to me to be dreadful theology, and deeply insulting to God.
Equally dreadful is to suppose that God is unable to save people He loves. What we need to understand is that, 'there is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one,' and we 'were, by nature, objects of wrath, just as the others.'

So tell me, suppose a king or president should see six convicted criminals being led off to execution, and he should pardon three of them, paying in full the price of their redemption, what harm has he done to the other three? They were going to be executed; they still are going to be executed. They are no worse off than they were before.

 

[Psalty]

Is it any better to let a lying spirit in to TEST your own INNOCENT children, knowing they would be corrupted? There's no difference.

Focus on what the Scriptures say. You quoted them yourself. The world was made for Christ. For the Redeemer. Not merely the Son. I think you're shocked because it's revealed that man is not the center of God's will and purpose after all. It is and always has been His Son.

To say that the ordination of Christ as High Priest was due to the foreknowledge of sin, instead of by virtue of His Identity, is to make man the center of His will and purpose, and His Son subservient.

No I agree that Christ was always the plan, but that doesnt mean it was Gods plan for Adam to sin.

You end up impugning Gods glory and His love because you chose to infer rather than accept what the scripture says.

And its comical to think that my view would glorify man, when actually it elevates the character of God. The truth is that the Calvinist view elevates “Elect” men and make the gospel only about man and what type of man God chose to make you. There is nothing more man-centered than the view you just laid out.

 

[Psalty]

I don't believe that God will send anyone He loves to hell. You can belive that if you want, but that seems to me to be dreadful theology, and deeply insulting to God.
Equally dreadful is to suppose that God is unable to save people He loves. What we need to understand is that, 'there is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one,' and we 'were, by nature, objects of wrath, just as the others.'

So tell me, suppose a king or president should see six convicted criminals being led off to execution, and he should pardon three of them, paying in full the price of their redemption, what harm has he done to the other three? They were going to be executed; they still are going to be executed. They are no worse off than they were before.

You are not addressing the underlying issue which was brought up.

God created humans. Calvinists believe he ordained that they fall. Now He has fallen children.

You believe that he is loving because he saves some. That is loving. But on your view he is now unloving of those he does not save. You have diminished his Love. You have a God who is pleased to hate and condemn many of his children.

The problem with calvinism is that it is so man centered that they cant put themselves in the shoes of the reprobate.

 

[kyredneck]

that seems to me to be dreadful theology

The sickness (CDS) that afflicts folks like @Psalty is dreadful.