Born Anew?

[Martin Marprelate]

1) We do not need to change our nature as fallen, dead in sin, individuals. No verse says we do!

John 3:3. 'Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Not only will he not enter it (v.5), but he cannot even understand it. We need no better example of this that Nicodemus. He hasn't the faintest idea what the Lord Jesus is talking about. "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter into his mother's womb and be born a second time?" A little later , he throws up his hands and asks, "How can these things be?" He hasn't got a clue. He desperately needs to be born again.

Many lost people do seek the narrow door, demonstrating the fallen nature can understand and seek spiritual things. Luke 13:24.

I did point you to v.25 a little while ago, but obviously to no avail. Let's look in a little bit of detail.
First of all, we have a problem with Romans 3:11. 'There is none who seek after God.' So does the Bible contradict itself? Not at all, but wait a minute! There's another text to be considered. Matt. 7:7-8. "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
So how can Luke 13:24 say that there are many who seek when Romans 3:11 says that there is none who seek God and Matthew 7:7 says that if we seek we shall find? Again, does the Bible contradict itself? God forbid!

So let's look at Luke 13:24 again. 'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and not be able.' The Greek word translated 'strive' is agonizomai, a very strong verb, from which we get the word 'agony.' We are to agonize to enter that narrow gate, to fight, contend, struggle, to 'endeavour with strenuous zeal.' It is the word used of contenders in the Olympic Games battling to win the prize.

Why are we to strive in such a strenuous way? Because many will seek to enter and not be able. When will that be? This is where Luke 13:25 is so helpful. 'When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from....."' Does this remind you of anything? How about the parable of the wise and foolish virgins? Matthew 25:11-12. 'Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!" But he answered and said, "Assuredly I say to you, I do not know you."'

Now think about Noah and the ark. Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5). He was warning the people of his day that they needed to repent and come onto the ark. All the time the animals were coming onto the ark, the doors were open; anyone could have come in and been saved. But no one entered save Noah and his family. Then we read in Gen. 7:16, 'And the LORD shut [Noah] in.' It was too late. When the rain came down in torrents and the fountains of the great deep were broken up, I expect many people strove to enter; I expect they hammered on the door of the ark until their knuckles were bleeding, but it was no good. The Master of the house had risen up and shut the door.

So when the Lord Jesus says, "Many, I say to you, will seek to enter," He is speaking of the time of our Lord's return. When the Lord Jesus is seen coming with the clouds, 'all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.' They will mourn because it will be too late. That is when many will seek to enter and not be able. Before that time, we read that, '... The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands ........ and they did not repent of their murders of their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts' (Rev. 9:20-21; c.f. 16:21).

That is why Psalm 95 says, 'Today, if you will hear His voice: "Do not harden your hearts,' and why Paul says, 'Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation' (1 Cor. 6:2). But nonetheless, unless God the Holy Spirit opens hearts to believe, no one will turn to Christ. 'There is none who seeks after God.' 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws them.' Praise God, there will be, on that Last day, a great crowd that no one can number, standing before the throne and crying out, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb."

 

[Dave G]

With all of the above to consider,
I encourage those that are reading this to rejoice, my friends, if you've truly believed on Christ, from the heart...

Because not everyone has been afforded that knowledge;
While those that have :

" ....are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel" ( Hebrews 12:22-24 ).

May God bless you.

 

[Charlie24]

That said, I encourage those that are reading this to rejoice, my friends, if you've truly believed on Christ, from the heart...
Because not everyone has been afforded that knowledge... and those that have :

" ....are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel" ( Hebrews 12:22-24 ).

May God bless you.

How does God decide who He will afford that knowledge and who He will not?

My Bible says that the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men.

 

[Dave G]

How does God decide who He will afford that knowledge and who He will not?

We're not told how...only that He does, Charlie.

Romans 9 tells us who ( the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ), but not in detail.
That knowledge is reserved to Himself.

Even so, God's people manifest themselves in who they are, by their belief of His words ( John 8:43-47 ).

 

[Dave G]

My Bible says that the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men.

Then everyone would know who He is, wouldn't they, Charlie?

Yet in reality, most do not, and they do so to this day.
They hate Him, use His name for a curse word, compose rock songs that denigrate Him and otherwise demonstrate their utter lack of respect for who He is.
That is the society in which we live.

Mine tells me who the "all men" are, by stating this:

" For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." ( Titus 2:11-14 ).

His grace has appeared to "all men" and in doing so, it teaches the "us", the "whosoever believeth" that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we ( those that have believed on Christ ) should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world...
Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ, who is both our God and our Saviour.

Those that look for His coming, Charlie.

Follow the pronouns and decide who it is that Paul is saying the "us" and "we" are...
Who are the "all men" in context with and how are they defined?
Who looks for that blessed hope but those that have believed on Him?
Certainly not unbelievers, my friend.

That's how I understand who the "all men" that Paul was referring to here, are...
Those that have received Him, "... which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God".

 

[Charlie24]

We're not told how...only that He does, Charlie.

Romans 9 tells us who ( the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ), but not in detail.
That knowledge is reserved to Himself.

Even so, God's people manifest themselves in who they are, by their belief of His words ( John 8:43-47 ).

Outside of Calvinism we know how He gives that saving knowledge to man.

"Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts...."

 

[Charlie24]

Then everyone would know who He is, wouldn't they, Charlie?

Yet in reality, most do not, and they do so to this day.
They hate Him, use His name for a curse word, compose rock songs that denigrate Him and otherwise demonstrate their utter lack of respect for who He is.
That is the society in which we live.

That's why mine tells me who the "all men" are, by stating this:

" For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." ( Titus 2:11-14 ).

His grace has appeared to "all men" and in doing so, it teaches the "us", the "whosoever believeth" that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, WE ( those that have believed on Christ ) should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world...
Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ, who is both God and Saviour.
Those that look for His coming, Charlie.

Follow the pronouns and decide who it is that Paul is saying the "us" and "we" are...
Who are the "all men" in context with and how are they defined?
Who looks for that blessed hope but those that have believed on Him?
Certainly not unbelievers.

That's how I understand who the "all men" that Paul was referring to here, are...
Those that have received Him, "... which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God".

I don't want to get started on this private interpretation that only the Calvinists use.

Not trying the be rude, just to the point.

 

[Charlie24]

I don't want to get started on this private interpretation that only the Calvinists use.

Not trying the be rude, just to the point.

I believe the great apostle Paul wrote the book of Hebrews.

Notice he didn't say "if you hear His voice" as in God's choice.

Paul said "if you WILL hear His voice" as in man's choice.

 

[Dave G]

Outside of Calvinism we know how He gives that saving knowledge to man.

Outside of brief snippets of the Scriptures called "verses" ( and because of even further details found in His word regarding why some believe and others do not ), I know that He hasn't, Charlie.
Details such as those found in Acts 2, Acts 13:48, John 10:26, John 1, John 3, John 6, John 8, John 10, Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and so forth.

My friend, there's much more to the Scriptures than I think you're currently seeing.

For example,
Contrary to popular belief, He does not have His angels cast those that He loves into everlasting punishment in the Lake of Fire.
That is reserved for those whom He hates and who hate Him and His ways...

Not those that love Him, from the heart.

I don't want to get started on this private interpretation that only the Calvinists use.

Not trying the be rude, just to the point.

I'm not a "Calvinist", Charlie, and I never have been influenced by anything that they have written.
Please stop accusing me of being one and accept the fact that I see these things in the Scriptures for myself, not because I was taught them by a man or an institution of men.

In fact, I was taught what you seem to believe, for over 25 years in the Baptist churches that I once was a member of.


Again, may God bless you sir and I wish you well.

 

[Charlie24]

Outside of further details in the Scriptures, I know that He hasn't, Charlie.
Details such as those found in Acts 13:48, John 10:26, John 1, John 3, John 6, John 8, John 10, Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and so forth.

My friend, there's much more to the Scriptures than I think you're currently seeing.

For example,
He does not have His angels cast those that He loves into everlasting punishment in the Lake of Fire.
That is reserved for those that whom He hates and who hate Him and His ways...

Not those that love Him, from the heart.

I'm not a "Calvinist", Charlie, and I never have been influenced by anything that they have written.
Please stop accusing me of being one and accept the fact that I see these things in the Scriptures for myself, not because I was taught them by a man or an institution of men.

In fact, I was taught what you seem to believe, for over 25 years in the Baptist churches that I once was a member of.


Again, may God bless you sir.

It seems you're standing on the fence, Dave. Not sure which way to go.

That's what I gather from reading your posts.

 

[Dave G]

It seems you're standing on the fence, Dave. Not sure which way to go.

I'm very sure which way to go, Charlie.
I'm going to be with my Saviour, who loved me and gave Himself for me and others like me...

The "nobodies" of this world.

He teaches them how to understand His word...
He doesn't leave that job up to imperfect men ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
We don't need to go to the "Arminians" or the "Calvinists" or anyone else in order to help us to understand His words.
He's given us His Spirit for that, and opened our understanding that we might understand the Scriptures ( Luke 24:45 ).

"He that is of God heareth God's words..."

I'll take my leave of this thread now, as I've said all that I feel the Lord would have me to say about this subject of why someone is born again, in addition to answering some of the questions posed by others.


May God bless you all in your studies and in your every trial and tribulation,
Knowing that He is always with you and will never leave you nor forsake you.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm very sure which way to go, Charlie.
I'm going to be with my Saviour, who loved me and gave Himself for me and others like me...

The "nobodies" of this world.

He teaches them how to understand His word...He doesn't leave that job up to imperfect men ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).

Well I pray you do know which way to go.

It's a very serious accusation against God to say that He chooses some for Himself and leaves the rest on their own to perish in Hell.

I think we all need to think that over very carefully.

 

[Van]

It's been addressed many times over in threads such as this, Van, only it seems that you still do not see it.
Here it is again:

" He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." ( John 1:10-14 ).

If all you are going to do is say the issue has been addressed, a dodge not an answer, and then post scripture without providing an interpretation in support of you view, all you are doing is obfuscation.

Here is the actual sequence, (1) as many as received Him - they put their faith in His name, then (2) He gave them the right to become children of God. So they had not been born anew as children, they had not yet undergone regeneration.

Why post Calvinist smokescreed, and deny the obvious. Your doctrine is false, a product of dark age thinking. Would it be wrong to assume Pride is the father of your persistent denial? Could you not possibly be on the wrong path even with so many famous biblical scholars are also on it. Broad is the wrong way, whether leading to destruction, or to loss of rewards for effective ministry.

 

[Van]

John 3:3. 'Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Not only will he not enter it (v.5), but he cannot even understand it. We need no better example of this that Nicodemus. He hasn't the faintest idea what the Lord Jesus is talking about. "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter into his mother's womb and be born a second time?" A little later , he throws up his hands and asks, "How can these things be?" He hasn't got a clue. He desperately needs to be born again.

I did point you to v.25 a little while ago, but obviously to no avail. Let's look in a little bit of detail.
First of all, we have a problem with Romans 3:11. 'There is none who seek after God.' So does the Bible contradict itself? Not at all, but wait a minute! There's another text to be considered. Matt. 7:7-8. "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
So how can Luke 13:24 say that there are many who seek when Romans 3:11 says that there is none who seek God and Matthew 7:7 says that if we seek we shall find? Again, does the Bible contradict itself? God forbid!

So let's look at Luke 13:24 again. 'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and not be able.' The Greek word translated 'strive' is agonizomai, a very strong verb, from which we get the word 'agony.' We are to agonize to enter that narrow gate, to fight, contend, struggle, to 'endeavour with strenuous zeal.' It is the word used of contenders in the Olympic Games battling to win the prize.

Why are we to strive in such a strenuous way? Because many will seek to enter and not be able. When will that be? This is where Luke 13:25 is so helpful. 'When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from....."' Does this remind you of anything? How about the parable of the wise and foolish virgins? Matthew 25:11-12. 'Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!" But he answered and said, "Assuredly I say to you, I do not know you."'

Now think about Noah and the ark. Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5). He was warning the people of his day that they needed to repent and come onto the ark. All the time the animals were coming onto the ark, the doors were open; anyone could have come in and been saved. But no one entered save Noah and his family. Then we read in Gen. 7:16, 'And the LORD shut [Noah] in.' It was too late. When the rain came down in torrents and the fountains of the great deep were broken up, I expect many people strove to enter; I expect they hammered on the door of the ark until their knuckles were bleeding, but it was no good. The Master of the house had risen up and shut the door.

So when the Lord Jesus says, "Many, I say to you, will seek to enter," He is speaking of the time of our Lord's return. When the Lord Jesus is seen coming with the clouds, 'all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.' They will mourn because it will be too late. That is when many will seek to enter and not be able. Before that time, we read that, '... The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands ........ and they did not repent of their murders of their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts' (Rev. 9:20-21; c.f. 16:21).

That is why Psalm 95 says, 'Today, if you will hear His voice: "Do not harden your hearts,' and why Paul says, 'Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation' (1 Cor. 6:2). But nonetheless, unless God the Holy Spirit opens hearts to believe, no one will turn to Christ. 'There is none who seeks after God.' 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws them.' Praise God, there will be, on that Last day, a great crowd that no one can number, standing before the throne and crying out, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb."

1) A defection, we did not change our nature, in John 3:3, God did. So you did not address the content of our pre-salvation nature.

2) Another defection, Romans 3:11 does NOT says no lost person EVER seeks God, your doctrine reads that into the text.

3) Assuming your reference to verse 25 refers to Luke 13:25, it says once the opportunity has closed, the lost have no opportunity for salvation. Once they have either a hardened heart, like Soil #1 or they physically die, the door is closed. No bearing on our issue...

4) Yet another defection, Matthew 7:7 is referring to born anew believers, NOT the lost. So no bearing on the issue.

5) 1 Corinthians 9:25 says we must exercise self control as we strive to enter the narrow door. So again, no bearing on the issue.

6) The fact that the opportunity for salvation closes is again NOT at issue. You seem to be simply deflecting.

7) At last, an actual on topic claim - Many will seek to enter after the door has closed! But Jesus is answering the question, "Are only a few being saved? So the argument is Jesus does not answer that question, are people being saved in the present, but instead addresses a time when no one is being saved. I kid you not, this is all Calvinism has to offer, absurd interpretations of verse after verse to nullify all the verses that conflict with its false doctrine.

8) Yet another false claim - "Unless God the Holy Spirit opens hearts to believe, no one will turn to Christ." Never mind the many who sought the narrow door responded to God's revelatory grace, both general revelation and special revelation. No supernatural enablement required.

9) Last point, Calvinism calls their enabling grace "Irresistible Grace." Never mind all those who seek God but do not find Him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1) A defection, we did not change our nature, in John 3:3, God did. So you did not address the content of our pre-salvation nature.

Where did I suggest that anyone could give birth to himself? Nowhere. It is you who 'defect' (deflect?) by suggesting that people dead in trespasses and sins can seek God, in direct contradiction of several texts, including 1 Cor. 2:14.

2) Another defection, Romans 3:11 does NOT says no lost person EVER seeks God, your doctrine reads that into the text.

Romans 3:11. 'There is none who seeks God.' Full stop (or 'period' as you say across the Pond). It is you who add to the text 'Excepting sometimes' in flagrant disobedience of Proverbs 30:6. Of course, if you want to make a complete nonsense of the word of God, this is the way to do it:
'Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever' (Heb. 13:8). @Van agrees, excepting sometimes.
'God, who cannot lie' (Titus 1:2). @Van agrees, excepting sometimes.
'The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out' John 6:37). @Van agrees, excepting sometimes.
This is the way to make the word of God of no effect. Shame on you, @Van!

3) Assuming your reference to verse 25 refers to Luke 13:25, it says once the opportunity has closed, the lost have no opportunity for salvation. Once they have either a hardened heart, like Soil #1 or they physically die, the door is closed. No bearing on our issue...

Every bearing on the issue. People only seek God when it is too late, unless God opens their hearts to do so. I showed this with a pile of Scriptural proofs. I can cut and paste them again if that's wht you want.

4) Yet another defection, Matthew 7:7 is referring to born anew believers, NOT the lost. So no bearing on the issue.

Every bearing on the issue. If you mean by this that only those whose hearts God has opened ever ask, seek or knock, then you are agreeing with me.

5) 1 Corinthians 9:25 says we must exercise self control as we strive to enter the narrow door. So again, no bearing on the issue.

Every bearing on the issue 1 Cor. 9:25 does not mention a narrow door, so it appears you are deflecting again.

6) The fact that the opportunity for salvation closes is again NOT at issue. You seem to be simply deflecting.

No. I am explaining what Luke 13:24 means by referring to Luke 13:25. The fact that you see this as deflecting shows how appalling you are at Scriptural analysis.

7) At last, an actual on topic claim - Many will seek to enter after the door has closed! But Jesus is answering the question, "Are only a few being saved? So the argument is Jesus does not answer that question, are people being saved in the present, but instead addresses a time when no one is being saved. I kid you not, this is all Calvinism has to offer, absurd interpretations of verse after verse to nullify all the verses that conflict with its false doctrine.

The Lord Jesus specifically did NOT answer the question, "Are only a few being saved." He was telling the questioner to make sure that he was entering while there is still time. You must be some sort of world champion at missing the point.

8) Yet another false claim - "Unless God the Holy Spirit opens hearts to believe, no one will turn to Christ." Never mind the many who sought the narrow door responded to God's revelatory grace, both general revelation and special revelation. No supernatural enablement required.

John 6:44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws them.' Supernatural enablement definitely required!

9) Last point, Calvinism calls their enabling grace "Irresistible Grace." Never mind all those who seek God but do not find Him.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...." Even though, 'There is none who seeks God.' Full stop!
If it were not for Irresistible Grace, no one would ever be saved.

 

[Van]

Where did I suggest that anyone could give birth to himself? Nowhere. It is you who 'defect' (deflect?) by suggesting that people dead in trespasses and sins can seek God, in direct contradiction of several texts, including 1 Cor. 2:14.

Romans 3:11. 'There is none who seeks God.' Full stop (or 'period' as you say across the Pond). It is you who add to the text 'Excepting sometimes' in flagrant disobedience of Proverbs 30:6. Of course, if you want to make a complete nonsense of the word of God, this is the way to do it:
'Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever' (Heb. 13:8). @Van agrees, excepting sometimes.
'God, who cannot lie' (Titus 1:2). @Van agrees, excepting sometimes.
'The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out' John 6:37). @Van agrees, excepting sometimes.
This is the way to make the word of God of no effect. Shame on you, @Van!

Every bearing on the issue. People only seek God when it is too late, unless God opens their hearts to do so. I showed this with a pile of Scriptural proofs. I can cut and paste them again if that's wht you want.

Every bearing on the issue. If you mean by this that only those whose hearts God has opened ever ask, seek or knock, then you are agreeing with me.

Every bearing on the issue 1 Cor. 9:25 does not mention a narrow door, so it appears you are deflecting again.

No. I am explaining what Luke 13:24 means by referring to Luke 13:25. The fact that you see this as deflecting shows how appalling you are at Scriptural analysis.

The Lord Jesus specifically did NOT answer the question, "Are only a few being saved." He was telling the questioner to make sure that he was entering while there is still time. You must be some sort of world champion at missing the point.

John 6:44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws them.' Supernatural enablement definitely required!

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...." Even though, 'There is none who seeks God.' Full stop!
If it were not for Irresistible Grace, no one would ever be saved.

1) Denial but only another deflection as if 1 Corinthians 2:14, said fallen people cannot understand spiritual milk. It does NOT. It says "the things" but does NOT say "which things" spiritual solid food, spiritual milk, or both! But the context, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 says fallen people can understand spiritual milk, and that is why Paul spoke to fallen people using spiritual milk.

2) Next you repeat your addition, posting no one seeks God, but claiming no one ever seeks God. But some of the time, some people, such as in Luke 13:24 do seek God. My view does NOT create conflict, Calvinism's view does create conflict.

3) Next we see the claim that a view consistent with all scripture is wrong, and a view inconsistent with scripture is right. I kid you not. Does any verse say Christ will cast out those given to Him? Nope. Does any verse say Jesus is different yesterday, today and forever? Nope.
But verse after verse says fallen people do seek God some of the time, like by works rather than faith.

4) People do NOT only seek God after it is too late. See Acts 13:7 or Acts 17:24-27.

5) Opening eyes, hearts, or minds refers to explaining something in an understandable way, NOT supernatural alteration. As usual, you have made the claim, but ignored the rebuttal.

6) Matthew 7:7 has NO bearing on the issue of the ability of the lost to seek God, as it addresses born anew believers.

7) Right, 1 Corinthians 9:25 has no bearing on the issue. You addressed striving in games.

8) No, many will seek to enter, proves Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine, whether or not those seeking find the Narrow door. Now is the day of salvation, the door has not yet been shut for all the lost. 2 Corinthians 6:2

9) Calvinism is from dark age theology, and your acceptance demonstrates an inability to actually study scripture objectively.

10) Now you double down on the claim Jesus was NOT answering the question. Folks, I kid you not, Calvinism rewrites every verse that demonstrates it is a false doctrine.; Just read the passage, Luke 13:22-30!

11) Revelatory grace provides the spiritual milk enabling the lost to trust in Jesus, no supernatural alteration via Irresistible grace is required.

12) God gives to Christ those whose faith He has credited as righteousness. Many seek the narrow door, but God chooses those who enter into Christ.

13) Just study scripture folks, Calvinism is false doctrine from the dark ages.

Many seek the narrow door, thus Total Spiritual Inability is false
Many do not find the narrow door, thus Irresistible grace is false
Christ died as a ransom for all, thus limited atonement is false
God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, thus Unconditional Election is false.

The Calvinist rebuttal, they say none of those verses mean what they say. I kid you not.​

​

 

[Van]

"Every verse of the Bible supports the Reformed view. Sheesh... It is not as if the Reformed persons cross out the passages they disagree with. Those holding a Reformed perspective CANNOT disagree with ANY passage of Scripture." [from an old post by another Calvinist)

On the other side of the street, I would say that Reformed Theology (code for T, U, L and I of the Tulip) is not actually supported by any verse of the Bible. What the Reformed thinkers have done is trash the author's intended message and pour in their own. It is a view supported not by what the Bible actually says, but by conjecture concerning what it does not say.

Thus "granting repentance" becomes "Irresistible Grace." When we sin we are not seeking God gets twisted into everyone who sins, sins all the time and thus never seeks God. God sets before us the choice of life or death is altered to mean God sets before us only one side of choice, life for some and death for others. God desiring all men to be saved becomes God desires all kinds of men to be saved. God giving grace to the humble becomes God gives grace to some men compelling them to be humble. On and on it goes.

God causes individuals to be born anew. But He chooses them for rebirth when and if He credits their faith as righteousness. Thus we do not earn or merit our salvation by believing all the right things with all the right sincerity. But God does use broken reeds, He takes us from where we are toward where we need to be.

 

[JesusFan]

"Every verse of the Bible supports the Reformed view. Sheesh... It is not as if the Reformed persons cross out the passages they disagree with. Those holding a Reformed perspective CANNOT disagree with ANY passage of Scripture." [from an old post by another Calvinist)

On the other side of the street, I would say that Reformed Theology (code for T, U, L and I of the Tulip) is not actually supported by any verse of the Bible. What the Reformed thinkers have done is trash the author's intended message and pour in their own. It is a view supported not by what the Bible actually says, but by conjecture concerning what it does not say.

Thus "granting repentance" becomes "Irresistible Grace." When we sin we are not seeking God gets twisted into everyone who sins, sins all the time and thus never seeks God. God sets before us the choice of life or death is altered to mean God sets before us only one side of choice, life for some and death for others. God desiring all men to be saved becomes God desires all kinds of men to be saved. God giving grace to the humble becomes God gives grace to some men compelling them to be humble. On and on it goes.

God causes individuals to be born anew. But He chooses them for rebirth when and if He credits their faith as righteousness. Thus we do not earn or merit our salvation by believing all the right things with all the right sincerity. But God does use broken reeds, He takes us from where we are toward where we need to be.

Even that saving faith is the gift of Gods towards his very elect, so how can God credit us for anything, as from start to finish, salvation is of and by the Lord

 

[Van]

Even that saving faith is the gift of Gods towards his very elect, so how can God credit us for anything, as from start to finish, salvation is of and by the Lord

Once again, a poster denies Romans 5:1-2!!!!! All they seem to do is ignore rebuttal and repeat their false claims.

When we are sinning, are we seeking God? Nope. When we are not sinning, with our minds set on spiritual things, are we sinning? Nope

If we had been chosen for salvation before time, could God set before us the choice of life or death? Nope as the choice had already been made.

If God desires all people to be saved, could He already declared He would not allow some to be saved? Nope

Advocates of dark ages doctrines simply are unable to address all the scripture that teaches it is nonsense.