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Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

Believeth

Member
Would you care to explain how Rom 9:11 fits God foreknowing who will trust and those that will reject Him?

In context, Romans 9 is a continuation of Romans 8, and the nature of God's foreknowledge is defined by those whom He has predestined to salvation.

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

It is showing Gods choice of Jacob over Esau as the line Christ would come through.

While it's true that Christ came from the line of Jacob, that's not the context of the argument Paul is making. If you believe it is, please point me to the verse that says so.

But according to your calvinism God has determined what man's nature would be so man is only doing just what God has determined for him to do.

God created man good and upright; however, that doesn't mean that He created man incorruptible. Man became corrupted by their own free choosing, which is exactly what happened in the garden. As a consequence, all of humanity has fallen in Adam. If God decides to withhold His mercy from the lost, He has the right to determine certain sins that the reprobate would have no problem freely committing on their own, which will ultimately be for the greater good. Is God unjust for doing things that way?

Calvinists cannot seem to understand their own philosophy. Or perhaps you just ignore the reality of your view.

I'm not a Calvinist; I'm a Biblicist. I'm just a mere mortal man, and all I can do is present to you the reality of Scripture. If you cannot, or rather will not, submit to the Word of God, then there's nothing I can say to change that if your mind is made up.
 
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Believeth

Member
I do not see how giving people opportunity to sin, to fulfill lusts and enjoy the pleasures of the world, is a way that God can demonstrate love to the lost.
You have to remember that @Believeth is not trying to justify God's love for the lost but rather the twisted calvinist view of God's love for the lost.

I don't claim, nor does the Bible demand, that God's love always has to be a redemptive love. Wouldn't you agree that it's an act of love, at least on some level, to allow the lost to have all the fun that they want before they ultimately perish?
 

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
I don't claim, nor does the Bible demand, that God's love always has to be a redemptive love. Wouldn't you agree that it's an act of love, at least on some level, to allow the lost to have all the fun that they want before they ultimately perish?
“Fun”? The lost mostly have fun in fornication, drug use, drunkenness, gluttony, greed, sorcery, theft, envy, murder, lying, cruelty, pride, oppression, and other sinful activities.

So, no, God does show His love to the lost by letting them have all the sinful fun they want. That fun and the memories of it are completely obliterated by the punishment they receive when they perish. The lost will bitterly regret all that fun, when they are judged according to their works.

Where does this absurd idea come from, that it is an act of love for God to let the lost have all the fun they want?
 

Believeth

Member
“Fun”? The lost mostly have fun in fornication, drug use, drunkenness, gluttony, greed, sorcery, theft, envy, murder, lying, cruelty, pride, oppression, and other sinful activities.

God gave human beings the ability to experience pleasure out of love, didn't He? Man is held responsible for abusing that privilege.

That fun and the memories of it are completely obliterated by the punishment they receive when they perish. The lost will bitterly regret all that fun, when they are judged according to their works.

That doesn't negate the fact that those acts of sin were still committed as the demonstration of a sinner's rebellion against God. If you picked an apple from a tree, enjoyed eating it, and the tree later died and withered away, that doesn't mean that the enjoyment you felt or the apple tree never existed.

Where does this absurd idea come from, that it is an act of love for God to let the lost have all the fun they want?

It comes from coherent Christian theology. You still have yet to demonstrate from the Bible that God's love needs to be universally equal towards everyone.
 
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Silverhair

Well-Known Member
In context, Romans 9 is a continuation of Romans 8, and the nature of God's foreknowledge is defined by those whom He has predestined to salvation.

You comment that Rom 9 isa continuation of Rom 8 does not answwer that question I asked.
"Would you care to explain how Rom 9:11 fits God foreknowing who will trust and those that will reject Him?"

When you read Rom 9-11 you see that Paul is now focused on the Jews and their history and future.

These chapters carry us back to chapter 3, where Paul proved the lost condition of the Jew as well as the Gentiles. But if this were so it might be charged that the Old Testament promises to Israel had failed, which he now shows is not the case. This line of argument is threefold: first, some of Israel were already saved (chap. 9); secondly, all of Israel might be saved but for unbelief (chap. 10); thirdly, all of Israel would be saved ultimately (chap. 11). Concise cmtx

While it's true that Christ came from the line of Jacob, that's not the context of the argument Paul is making. If you believe it is, please point me to the verse that says so.

We see verses in Rom 9 that point to Christ the savior coming through the line of Jacob.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

"Please note that the election/choice G1589 did not elect Jacob the man to salvation, but it did elect the nation of Jacob to bring the promised Seed–Jesus Christ. Therefore, this passage does not say that the man Jacob was eternally saved, or that the man Esau was eternally damned. Neither does it say that every descendant of Jacob would be saved, or every descendant of Esau would be damned. It simply tells us that God elected that Jesus would be born through Jacob’s descendants rather than Esau’s, proving that God can choose whomever He wants through whom to do His will. God proved that He was not bound by the traditions of men to choose the eldest son (and Isaac’s favorite son), but He has authority to choose whomever He wishes according to His own will."
[Dr. H. Bavinck's Doctrine of God (as quoted in Baker’s @ Rom 9:6-18) ]

God created man good and upright; however, that doesn't mean that He created man incorruptible. Man became corrupted by their own free choosing, which is exactly what happened in the garden. As a consequence, all of humanity has fallen in Adam. If God decides to withhold His mercy from the lost, He has the right to determine certain sins that the reprobate would have no problem freely committing on their own, which will ultimately be for the greater good. Is God unjust for doing things that way?
Yes man does sin of his own free will and it is by that same free will that he can also choose to trust in God for his salvation.

And I agree that God will use even the sins of man to bring about His final purpose.

I'm not a Calvinist; I'm a Biblicist. I'm just a mere mortal man, and all I can do is present to you the reality of Scripture. If you cannot, or rather will not, submit to the Word of God, then there's nothing I can say to change that if your mind is made up.

I do submit to the Word of God as you would see if you read through my posts.

My views are based upon the clear contextualized word of God.

I have endeavored to point out the errors I see in posts of those that would twist or misuse scripture.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have not read this thread, just the opening post. Here is the section I wish to discuss.
Peter is using water baptism as a type of Noah's Ark. He tells us that the physical water does absolutely nothing to our bodies but it does have a significant connection to the resurrection. Since Noah's Ark was the instrument that saved Noah and his family from the flood, water baptism is the instrument that saves us from having a guilty conscience. It can't be the instrument of our salvation because Peter says Christ once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust and that brings us to God. By imitating Christ in our own death, burial, and resurrection in the water, this will give us the good conscience towards God that we need to equip us to defend our faith and be ready to give an answer to those who would speak evil of us.

I disagree with much of the statement.

The only thing that happens to us when we are water baptized is we get wet. The baptism that saves is our spiritual baptism into Christ, Romans 6:3.

My view is 1 Peter 3:21 is as follows: An Interpretive translation

Corresponding to that, spiritual baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh from a water baptism, but the answer of a good conscience toward God — by means of faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Yes I know the above is NOT what the verse says, but is a paraphrase reflecting my interpretation.

The major difference in my view, with many others, is that when we were "spiritually baptized into Christ" that means we were spiritually transferred out of the realm of darkness in Adam and into Christ's spiritual body.
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
I'm not a Calvinist; I'm a Biblicist. I'm just a mere mortal man, and all I can do is present to you the reality of Scripture. If you cannot, or rather will not, submit to the Word of God, then there's nothing I can say to change that if your mind is made up.
In truth, this brief paragraph should read,

I'm a Calvinist; but I call myself a Biblicist. I'm just a mere mortal man, and all I can do is present to you a Calvinist interpretation of Scripture. If you cannot, or rather will not, submit to Calvinism, then there's nothing I can say to change that if your mind is made up.
 

Believeth

Member
You comment that Rom 9 isa continuation of Rom 8 does not answwer that question I asked.

His foreknowledge is based on what He has decreed to take place in time, and that includes those whom He has predestined to salvation.

These chapters carry us back to chapter 3

That's a completely different topic that you're running off to. Chapter 3 is focused on the universal sinfulness of humanity. Chapter 9 is focused on God's sovereign choice in salvation.

We see verses in Rom 9 that point to Christ the savior coming through the line of Jacob.

I see no genealogies listed.

Yes man does sin of his own free will and it is by that same free will that he can also choose to trust in God for his salvation.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

How do you obtain something without it being given to you?
 

Believeth

Member
In truth, this brief paragraph should read,

I'm a Calvinist; but I call myself a Biblicist. I'm just a mere mortal man, and all I can do is present to you a Calvinist interpretation of Scripture. If you cannot, or rather will not, submit to Calvinism, then there's nothing I can say to change that if your mind is made up.

31025917.jpg
 

37818

Well-Known Member
How was Noah and his family saved by the flood?

2 Peter 3:6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: . . . .

Romans 6:4, . . . we also should walk in newness of life.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
His foreknowledge is based on what He has decreed to take place in time, and that includes those whom He has predestined to salvation.
So you are actually a calvinist but do not like the label, got it.

So He is also responsible for all those He has predestined for damnation.

That's quite the loving God you follow.

That's a completely different topic that you're running off to. Chapter 3 is focused on the universal sinfulness of humanity. Chapter 9 is focused on God's sovereign choice in salvation.
Yes I know what Rom 3 is about but it is clear that you have misunderstood Rom 9.

It is the line through which the Messiah will come and how anyone can be saved through faith in Him.

God's sovereign choice is shown in the choice of the line through which the Messiah had come. Isaac not Ishmael, Jacob not Esau.

The Jews thought their salvation was through being physically descended from Abraham.

Paul was showing them it was not but rather it is through faith in the stumbling stone, Christ Jesus.

I see no genealogies listed.
What do you think Rom 9:7-13 is showing you.

What you are showing is your lack of biblical knowledge.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

How do you obtain something without it being given to you?

By hearing the gospel and believing it.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,...

Peter’s point is that the Gentile audience has been blessed with a salvation that is in no way inferior to that of the Jews. All who are saved by the grace of God enjoy equal acceptance before and access to God

You say your are not a calvinst but the way you interact with scripture shows that you have been strongly influenced by that philosophy.
 

Believeth

Member
So you are actually a calvinist but do not like the label, got it.

So He is also responsible for all those He has predestined for damnation.

That's quite the loving God you follow.

I don't necessarily adhere to the label of Calvinist because I believe many of the same conclusions Calvin comes to can be deduced from Scripture, but if you want to call me that, I don't mind. Back to the point, man is responsible for their damnation. Rather than allowing all of humanity to meet their ultimate spiritual demise, God simply decides who He wants to save out of the bunch. Remember, He's not obligated to save anyone at all—looks like quite the loving God to me.

It is the line through which the Messiah will come and how anyone can be saved through faith in Him.

The genealogy of Jacob to Christ is not the main point of the argument that you seem to be suggesting. If it was, then I would expect to see his family tree listed, as we see in the synoptic Gospels. When you make a claim, it's expected that it should be backed up by Scripture. So far, I'm not seeing that from your side.

By hearing the gospel and believing it.

I still don't have a clear answer on how faith can be obtained if it's something we can achieve from within ourselves. If one is given faith, hears the Gospel, and believes it, then what the text says makes perfect sense.
 
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