You need to address John of Japan's last post. He can help you understand better than I can.
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- Thread starter Salty
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You need to address John of Japan's last post. He can help you understand better than I can.
37818
Well-Known Member
No. I believe in the Biblical post resurrection rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
This is reading the NT back into the OT, a common practice of covenant theologians, but not very valid theologically. I see no theological reason for doing so.
Not really. "Caught up" in 1 Thess. 4:17, the most important rapture passage, is the Greek harpazo (ἁρλπἀζω) occurs in 12 other verses, none of which are about the second coming.
So the rapture occurs, Jesus takes us up to meet Him in the air, then immediately the 2nd coming occurs, and Jesus drops us back onto the earth once more and starts his millennial reign? Is this what you hold to? What is the purpose of the two events being so close?
37818
Well-Known Member
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Revelation 20:4-5, And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Oh trust me, I know the dispensational view quite well.
Show me from 1 Thessalonians 4:13ff that His appearing in the cloud is pre-trib. Where does it explicitly state it?
OK, we can move on then.
Do you mean 4:17?
I could ask you the same in whichever view you see it.
But I think you know if it were plainly written there wouldn't be a pre, mid, post-trib view.
Show me a pre-trib timing from that passage. Where does it explicitly give the timing of His appearing in that passage.
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.[1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB 1995]
SG, I think you also know that the Rapture timing cannot be explained from a single passage.
It takes a complete overview of all related Scripture to place it together.
Why don't you just tell me the problem you see with pre-trib in that context, the overall context.
@SovereignGrace
Let me ask you a question assuming you are post-trib.
In Rev. 20 John said he seen the souls of them who were beheaded and they refused to take the mark of the beast or worship the beast.
And they lived and reigned 1000 years with Christ. John says this is the first resurrection. We know that all of the saved will reign with Christ, but John only mentions those killed in the tribulation reigning with Christ.
My question is where are the saints that died before the tribulation began and back to Adam, where are they and why did John not mention them?
And that # 1000 is as literal as 7 is in Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, & 5:6.
Ok, for you it's symbolic.
Well, I’m not post-trib but post-mill. The beast is not some future person, but was Emperor Nero, who was nicknamed beast during his time on earth. Saints who failed to worship him were executed. The tribulation spoken of was fulfilled in AD 70 when the temple was flattened and Jerusalem was ransacked by the Roman armies.
Are there 7 Spirits of God?
That doesn’t fit the Revelation narrative my friend.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.[Revelation 1:1-3 NASB 1995]
”Soon” and “near” cannot in any way mean millennia later.
Ok, we're worlds apart with a space between another world apart.
We will not agree on anything!
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