Dominion vs determinism

[KenH]

But Jesus is available to come to. And some of salvation is dependent upon us.

If it is, then you, me, and every one else is doomed.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The us are people. Mankind. Not some group of people that God has respect to over another.

And God didn’t choose them based on who they are or what they will do. He chose them in accordance to His will. Look at Deuteronomy 7:7-8 for instance:

“The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.[Deuteronomy 7:7-8]

He did not choose Israel because Abram/Abraham was some great guy doing great things for the Lord, in fact, he was an idol worshipper, per Joshua 24:2.

 

[Silverhair]

It is. Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of the Thy power.

"Shall be", not "might be". "Willing", not "reluctant".

Why is the sentence so strongly declarative? Because it concerns the power of God!

Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

We either have God forcing man to do something or man being willing to do something.

Psa 110:3 Your people shall be volunteers H5071 In the day of Your power; NKJV

Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, KJV

And from what we see in the text we see that man in his free will is willing, he volunteers.

H5071
- Original: נדבה
- Transliteration: N@dabah
- Phonetic: ned-aw-baw’
- Definition:
1. voluntariness, free-will offering
a. voluntariness
b. freewill, voluntary, offering

That does go against the calvinist determinism view.

 

[KenH]

You abscond from your responsibility and place all the blame on God by saying that we have nothing to do with it.

Not at all. As I wrote earlier in my post #41 earlier in this thread: Each person that God chose before the foundation of the world and gave to His Son to be their Surety will, in time, come under the hearing of the gospel of Christ, and God will open their hearts to receive the Word, and the Holy Spirit will regenerate them and grant them the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ on their behalf and the gift of repentance of the dead works they formerly trusted in.

 

[KenH]

So just like believing, God’s power made you willing to produce the mean thought??

Yes. God is absolutely, totally sovereign.

Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[SovereignGrace]

So God was misleading Cain when He told him that if he did well he would be accepted. Cain had to be regenerated first and it seems that God has not done that for Him.

Of course Christ died for sinners. We would have to be to need a Saviour. If we were not sinners, we would not need a Saviour.
Don’t over complicate it.

I almost forgot to address this as we are posting posts whippet quick. Please forgive me for not addressing this sooner.

Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”[Genesis 4:6-7]

First off, Cain was already at odds with God, seeing He rejected his offering. This made him mad at God. God told him the truth, ”If you do well, your countenance will be lifted up.” But notice what Cain did. He murdered his brother. He did what he freely chose to do, showing he, nor can anyone else, master sin. Jesus must do that on our behalf.

 

[KenH]

And from what we see in the text we see that man in his free will is willing, he volunteers.

Willing because of God's power, not man's.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Did Paul labor? Yes. Did he claim credit for it, did he claim that it was because of himself? No. "But by the grace of God", "His grace", "the grace of God".

 

[KenH]

According as he hath chosen us in him


Stop hacking apart the text to fit your beliefs.

I went on in this post to deal with the phrase, "in Him." I wrote:

"And God places His elect in Christ (Galatians 3:27). Christ is God. Christ has always existed. God is eternal."

Galatians 3:27 states that the elect are immersed in Christ - "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

The one being spiritually immersed into Christ does not do the immersing of himself into Christ. He is placed into Christ by the one doing the immersing - God.

And every person whom God chose before the world began will be immersed into Christ during his lifetime on this earth; each person that God chose before the foundation of the world and gave to His Son to be their Surety will, in time, come under the hearing of the gospel of Christ, and God will open their hearts to receive the Word, and the Holy Spirit will regenerate them and grant them the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ on their behalf and the gift of repentance of the dead works they formerly trusted in.

 

[KenH]

This thread has moved along so quickly, I apologize if I have failed to respond to any item that I was asked to address.

 

[Silverhair]

All of the people for whom Christ died, shall trust Him. Every single one of them. For salvation is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9), not of man.

So if we take your words as true then everyone should be saved

Heb 2:9 ...at he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Rom 5:6 ... in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

But what does the bible say?

I agree, salvation is of the Lord.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Act 16:30 ... "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The question
Act 16:31 ... "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, ... The answer

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

So while Christ died for the whole world it is only those that freely trust in Him that will be saved.

 

[Silverhair]

Willing because of God's power, not man's.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Did Paul labor? Yes. Did he claim credit for it, did he claim that it was because of himself? No. "But by the grace of God", "His grace", "the grace of God".

Not what the text say Ken. But it is what your calvinism requires.

What I get from your comments is that man is just a puppet that God controls. But then you want to have that puppet responsible for the things that your version of God makes him do. You do have a really odd understanding of God's word.

 

[Ascetic X]

While I am not a Calvinist, I wonder why I responded positively to the gospel when a pastor explained it to me at a Mennonite church camp when I was a teenager.

My parents were not church goers and my dad was an atheist. They sent me and my brothers to Sunday school at a Methodist church, probably to have time alone together, but perhaps seeds of faith were planted in my heart as a child.

I do think an unsaved person has to exercise free will faith in Christ when they hear the gospel and faith is not works. But does the Holy Spirit do something in the person’s soul to trigger or encourage that act of trusting in Jesus? I see that as likely.

My act of enthusiastically believing the gospel is not something that makes me superior to those who reject the gospel, nor is my faith a work that I can boast about. God does all the salvation process within me, but I had to hear and accept the gospel. Whether we accept or reject the gospel, God honors our free will choice.

I cannot accept that you get born again and then you trust in Jesus as Lord and believe God raised Jesus from the dead. That reverses the order.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As you should know, but seem to ignore, we have to look at the context in which the word is found.

We should indeed look at the context, but you have not done so. Indeed, I find myself wondering if you actually know what context is.

When looking at 'compel' anagkazo in Luk 14:23 we find "it simply means that utmost zeal and moral urgency should be used by Christians to induce sinners to enter the Kingdom of God." ISBE They are not forced to believe as you are suggesting by your deflecting to other verses.

Oh dear, oh dear! One of the major ways of finding out the meaning of a word is to compare Scripture with Scripture so as to find out what the word in question means in other parts of the word of God. Let's just look at Matt. 14:22. 'Immediately, He made [Gk. anaykazo] His disciples get into the boat.....' Now does the text say that He forced them violently into the boat kicking and screaming? Of course not. He told them to get into the boat and they obeyed. There is not the slightest indication that the disciples in v.26 were fewer in number than those of v.22. They all got on the boat. They went willingly. 'Your people shall be volunteers in the day of Your power.'

But I do note that you did not answer my question.
"are you understanding "compel" {Luk 14:23} as meaning to force/drag them or as to draw them by powerful and loving persuasion?"

Surely you can answer that question without trying to deflect.

I did not deflect as you know perfectly well. I directed you to Jer. 31:3. God does not drag people into the kingdom of God against their will. He changes their will. When God asked Ezekiel, "Son of man, can these dry bones live?" He did not reply, "Yes, but only if they want to." God gave life to the dry bones, and they came to life. But they only came to life when Ezekiel prophesied to them. God uses means, and those means are the word of God.

I have to conclude from your use of "It's called 'irresistible calling." that you think that if one is called then then they will have to respond in faith.

Do you not believe Jesus what He says in Joh 12:32 "... if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" Are all men saved Martin? Or are you going to tell me ALL only means some?

1 Tim. 6:10, KJV. 'For the love of money is a root of all evil.' Is that true? Is money a root of adultery or idolatry? No, and that is why most modern versions have correctly written, 'For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.' The same applies in John 12:32. All men are simply not drawn to the Lord Jesus. Many have never heard of Him and others have no interest in Him. You must know that. If you don't, get out on the streets and witness to folk as I have been doing the past week. Some express interest, but others walk on by. "No thanks; I'm not interested." What the Lord Jesus is saying is that through His crucifixion, people of all nations, languages, intelligence, financial status etc. will come to know Him. And so they have.
To say that God tries to force or drag people into the Kingdom, but they are stronger that He is and escape, is, to my mind a form of blasphemy. We would end up saying, "Poor old God! He tried His very hardest, but He just wasn't up to the scratch!" God forbid! No, no! God is almighty. He does all His will, and has mercy on whomever He will have mercy, and compassion on whomever He will have compassion.

I am finished with this thread. I don't know why I let myself be tempted into these fruitless dialogues of the deaf. You are welcome to the last word if you want it.