Directly @BibleVendor: Do you believe in the deity of Christ? That is, do you believe He is God, equal with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, the second person of the Trinity?
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Lord’s Prayer Updated
- Thread starter BibleVendor
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Thanks. I'm on it.
In Post #60 I should have said that John 3:3 was referring to salvation, but Col. 1:18 was not. It was referring to Christ's resurrection.
Sir, Jesus was teaching His disciples how to pray, in a way that had application for the rest of their lives, and has application for all those saved under the New Covenant. I has no application under the New Covenant for the lost. They are not, or not yet, born anew as spiritual children of God, and therefore they would not address God as Abba, Father.
If you hold an alternate view, please explain it. I make mistakes.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
If you say this Lord’s Prayer is tailored for people who were spiritually dead, then why does it begin “Our Father, who art in heaven”?
This prayer was tailored for the disciples of Jesus, who were following His teachings, healing people, and casting out demons. Spiritually dead people do not do these things, nor can they.
BibleVendor
Member
Indeed, the ‘Lord Prayer’ does start with the words ‘Our Father in heaven’ because even though everyone Jesus preached to or taught, was spiritually dead and even a Christian, and technically God was not even their father, Jesus was preparing them for Christianity, which was just around the corner, to be ushered by the death & resurrection of Jesus. Jesus came to prepare humanity for Christianity and launch Christianity in the earth.
Without the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, no one could be a Christian and God could not be their father..
…the firstborn from the dead… - Colossians 1:18
If Jesus is the first born from the spiritually dead, then there had to be others who were also spiritually dead and were to be born later. You cannot be the firstborn, if no one else follows after you
And guess, who had to be born again from spiritual death to spiritual life?
Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God - John 3:3
If the people under the old covenant, did not need to be spiritually born again from spiritual death to spiritual life, why did Jesus, the Messiah, say they had to?
And if without being born again spiritually, according to Jesus you cannot enter the kingdom of God or become a Christian, so how coils God be your father?
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Again your heresy of saying that Jesus was “the firstborn from the spiritually dead.”
This is blasphemy.
BibleVendor
Member
BibleVendor
Member
Please, kindly explain, why it is blasphemy, when the Bible says, Jesus was the firstborn from the spiritually dead?
BibleVendor
Member
Correction noted. Everyone makes mistakes. And it takes an honest person t do so. I respect that.
BibleVendor
Member
Absolutely, God is three in one, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The same way a man can be a father, husband, manager, preacher and school board member at the same time.
KenH
Well-Known Member
The Bible does not say that God the Son died spiritually. God the Son, in his pure human nature, died physically and was resurrected.
God the Son was made sin by the sins of God's elect, chosen before the world began and given to His Son to be their Surety, being imputed to Him and He paid their total sin debt. And Christ's perfect righteousness, a righteousness in which God the Father cannot find a flaw, was imputed to God's elect. Christ was never and will never be tainted by sin in Himself, but by imputation only of the elect's sins, and God's elect will never be righteous in and of themselves, but only by imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
This how everyone of God's elect has been saved since the beginning of time and will be saved until the end of time - by the sovereign, free grace of God based on the finished work of Christ in fulfilling ALL of the conditions for the salvation of His people, God's elect.
When was Jesus Christ spiritually dead? Where does the Bible state that. Or is that another of your updates. Answer the question. I'm a moderator who moderates lightly but bans when necessary. I ain't playing. Answer the question. When was Jesus spiritually dead?
And are you a Jehovah's Witness? This is what they falsely believe. And that Jesus did not physically resurrect.
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The meaning of "blaspheme" (βλασφημέω) in the original Greek in which the NT was written (which fact you have yet to acknowledge) is to insult. (I could quote from many Greek lexicons, but surely I don't have to.) When you say that Jesus was the firstborn from the "spiritually dead," you are saying that Jesus was a lost sinner, since that is the Scriptural meaning of "spiritually dead."
So, was Jesus born spiritually dead? Absolutely not. He is the source of all spiritual life ("the way, the truth, and the life" in John 14:6), so it is impossible that He could be the firstborn of spiritual deadness. Therefore, you insulted Christ. The passage you quote from, Col. 1:18, says that Christ is firstborn from the dead, not from the "spiritually dead." He was firstborn from the literally, physically dead, meaning the first to ever rise from the physically dead.
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I will accept your statement. However, that's a very poor illustration, kind of like the "oneness Pentecostals" say, since the husband, manager, preacher, and school board member can all be one person, one man, but, the trinity is three persons, "three in one" we say. But then there are no good human illustrations of the Trinity.
BibleVendor
Member
He….prayed, saying ‘O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me…. - Matthew 26:39
When Jesus drank the cup, containing the sins of all mankind, He be came a sinner, instantly died spiritually just like Adam, when Adam sinned against God. As soon as Jesus died spiritually, the door was open for him to eventually die physically. If Jesus had not died spiritually, He could not die physically, because physical death is a byproduct of spiritual death.
Similarly, if Adam had not died spiritually as a result of sin, He would have lived forever, without dying physically.
For He made Him, who k ew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God - 2 Corinthians 5:21
The Bible says, that God made Jesus to be sin or a sinner, but you say Jesus was never a sinner, so who should we believe, you or the Bible?
Jesus had to become a sinner, in order to pay the penalty for all sinners.
BibleVendor
Member
Thanks.
I'm quite familiar with those scriptures.
I'm trying to be patient here. Tell us what sins Jesus committed. And by the way, the "cup" was not a cup of sins, but "the" cup of God's wrath.
Read Isaiah 51 and Jeremiah 25. It explains that very clearly.
You are claiming Jesus was a sinner who only resurrected spiritually.
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Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Bible never says Jesus became a sinner. A sinner is someone who commits sin. Jesus became sin for us and received the penalty of God’s wrath, but Jesus never sinned. He took on the sins of mankind without sinning Himself.
Bible never says Jesus died spiritually.
Psalm 75:
Isaiah 51:
1 John 3:5
But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
Isa 53:4-6, Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
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BibleVendor
Member
Indeed, Jesus rose from physical death, but Colossians 1:18 , is talking about rising from spiritual death, because Jesus was not the first or the second to rise from physical death.
Remember Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from physical death, long before Jesus died physically?
He…. took her by the hand and called saying, ‘Little girl arise’. - Luke 8:49-56
And remember, Jairus’s daughter, whom again was raised from physical death by Jesus, also long before Jesus Himself rose physically from death? There are more examples of people, who rose from physical death, in both the old and New Testament, but you get the point.
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