When was Satan's Fall From Grace?

[Paleouss]

Greeting SMA. Good conversation. I hope your week is a blessed one.

Saying, "The story makes no distinction, or emphasis on Satan's over Eve's . . .," does not establish that correctly noting that Satan sinned prior to Eve who sinned prior to Adam is of no importance.

First, you may be arguing against something that wasn't in my last post. I'm not sure. You seem to be arguing primarily against the concept of "no importance". Simply by recall, you might be referring back to my post #55 which was title "The Irrelevant Distinction of Satan's Inward Corruption". In that post I laid out how postulating Satan's inward corruption was irrelevant to the story of Genesis 3 and that postulating there was indeed a fall of Satan prior to the Eden account based simply on the logical order of inward corruption brings errors in what the biblical text is trying to tell us. In and of itself it was not an assertion that contemplating the order of corruption in general has no importance...but an assertion that contemplating the order of corruption in the Genesis 3 collective-fall account brings errors and therefore brings little significance to the understanding of Satan's fall. (and leads to theories like the Gap-Theory).

Second, regarding your quote specifically. But it does correctly establish that God's word is not making your observation a point of the lesson. I have correctly established what the point of the lesson tells us, directly. You, on the other hand, are attempting to defend something beyond the lesson, i.e., that the order of the acts means something beyond what the lesson is teaching. In your defense, it may mean something, however, that would then require scriptural support along with biblical reasoning that it means something beyond the direct lesson (instead of simply a man's theology).

So what is your scriptural support that the order of Genesis 3 acts are intended to mean something beyond the lesson?

If you look back over what I have written in this thread. You will find that I asserted that it is true, one's internal corruption precedes one's external actions. However, establishing that something is possible brings nothing to the table about when Satan fell. One can go on all day giving logical "possibilities", but then are we really seeking God's truth in His word?

Romans 5:12 says that death entered into the world through the sin of Adam--Satan's sin did not bring death into the world. Because we know with certainty that Satan's sin in the Garden that preceded the transgression of Eve and the sin of Adam did not bring death into the world, there is no necessity to hold that had Satan fallen prior to what he did in the Garden, death necessarily would have come into the material universe.

First, I want to make sure you are not avoiding what Romans 5:12 says. You correctly present that Rom 5:12 tells us that death came into the world due to one man (Adam). But you seem to keep leaving out the first thing that the Scripture says was brought into the world by Adam (which seems ironic since you want to focus on the correct order in Gen 3).

1. through one man sin entered the world

The biblical text tells us that SIN first entered the world through one man, Adam. I'm interested in your understanding of how Satan's pre-Edenic fall does not bring SIN into the world first. That would require you giving me your position, which you haven't done yet.

2. and death through sin

So death enters the world because sin first entered the world.

Second, your quote above ignores the observation that because Romans 5:12 says that Adam was the first to bring sin into the world then it therefore follows that it was not Satan who first brought sin into he world. In other words, if Satan's order of sin actually means something, and the story of Genesis 3 isn't meant to be a collective-fall-all-at-once story, then it would seem to follow that Satan then is the first to bring sin into the world (as the Gap-Theorists suggest). Which then contradicts Rom 5:12.

In other words, holding that Satan's fall preceded his sinful deception of Eve in the Garden does not require us to have to believe in any form of "Gap theory" where humans had sinned and died prior to what took place in the Garden of Eden.

We are totally in agreement here. Not by the information you present before it...but as a general conclusion, we agree.

Again, I categorically reject any and all forms of the "Gap theory."

You have me at a disadvantage. I don't know your view. You have consistently not given it. But the point that you respond to with your disclaimer, above, that you don't hold the Gap-Theory, is in response to me giving examples of how thinking Satan falling prior to the garden of Eden event might matter. I didn't try and put that position on you, but showed two positions of how I think it leads to errors and why it is important.



Good conversation
Peace to you brother

 

[Paleouss]

Where do you see this fitting in? -

And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, “Now have come salvation and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night."

Greetings JonC

Sticking with the same outline as post #97 (the one you responded to). It seems to me that the relevant verses are Revelation 12:8-11.

A. Rev 12:8... "nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer"

The next two verses Revelation 9-10 appear to elaborate on Rev 12:8, above.

B. Rev 12:9... "So the great dragon was cast out ... he was cast to the earth."

This appears to be the physical expulsion of Satan (the no place found any longer). The text uses "cast out" and matches it within the context as meaning "cast to the earth". [Jesus sees him fall like lightning from heaven] (cf Luke 10:18)

C. Rev 12:10 ... "the power of His Christ have come"... "for the accuser of our brethren"... "has been cast down"

It seems like Revelation 12:10 is still addressing Revelation 12:8, "nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer", but reframing the perspective from the "physical position perspective" to one of "position of authority perspective". In other words, it goes from stating the physical act (v9) to why it's important or should be celebrated (v10).

Revelation 12:9-10 are then two different ways of describing what Revelation 12:8 means when it says no place was found for them in heaven any longer. In other words, v9-10 are the same event.

If this is right, then being "cast down" (v10) means something like loosing one's position or being demoted. Satan had been using the position to be an accuser. But he was "cast down" and Christ took the position and uses it as an advocate. I think the use of the term "kingdom of God" in v10 has some theological significance as well which matches what I have presented here.

Peace to you brother

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Greeting SMA. Good conversation. I hope your week is a blessed one.

First, you may be arguing against something that wasn't in my last post. I'm not sure. You seem to be arguing primarily against the concept of "no importance". Simply by recall, you might be referring back to my post #55 which was title "The Irrelevant Distinction of Satan's Inward Corruption". In that post I laid out how postulating Satan's inward corruption was irrelevant to the story of Genesis 3 and that postulating there was indeed a fall of Satan prior to the Eden account based simply on the logical order of inward corruption brings errors in what the biblical text is trying to tell us. In and of itself it was not an assertion that contemplating the order of corruption in general has no importance...but an assertion that contemplating the order of corruption in the Genesis 3 collective-fall account brings errors and therefore brings little significance to the understanding of Satan's fall. (and leads to theories like the Gap-Theory).

Second, regarding your quote specifically. But it does correctly establish that God's word is not making your observation a point of the lesson. I have correctly established what the point of the lesson tells us, directly. You, on the other hand, are attempting to defend something beyond the lesson, i.e., that the order of the acts means something beyond what the lesson is teaching. In your defense, it may mean something, however, that would then require scriptural support along with biblical reasoning that it means something beyond the direct lesson (instead of simply a man's theology).

So what is your scriptural support that the order of Genesis 3 acts are intended to mean something beyond the lesson?

If you look back over what I have written in this thread. You will find that I asserted that it is true, one's internal corruption precedes one's external actions. However, establishing that something is possible brings nothing to the table about when Satan fell. One can go on all day giving logical "possibilities", but then are we really seeking God's truth in His word?


First, I want to make sure you are not avoiding what Romans 5:12 says. You correctly present that Rom 5:12 tells us that death came into the world due to one man (Adam). But you seem to keep leaving out the first thing that the Scripture says was brought into the world by Adam (which seems ironic since you want to focus on the correct order in Gen 3).

1. through one man sin entered the world

The biblical text tells us that SIN first entered the world through one man, Adam. I'm interested in your understanding of how Satan's pre-Edenic fall does not bring SIN into the world first. That would require you giving me your position, which you haven't done yet.

2. and death through sin

So death enters the world because sin first entered the world.

Second, your quote above ignores the observation that because Romans 5:12 says that Adam was the first to bring sin into the world then it therefore follows that it was not Satan who first brought sin into he world. In other words, if Satan's order of sin actually means something, and the story of Genesis 3 isn't meant to be a collective-fall-all-at-once story, then it would seem to follow that Satan then is the first to bring sin into the world (as the Gap-Theorists suggest). Which then contradicts Rom 5:12.

We are totally in agreement here. Not by the information you present before it...but as a general conclusion, we agree.

You have me at a disadvantage. I don't know your view. You have consistently not given it. But the point that you respond to with your disclaimer, above, that you don't hold the Gap-Theory, is in response to me giving examples of how thinking Satan falling prior to the garden of Eden event might matter. I didn't try and put that position on you, but showed two positions of how I think it leads to errors and why it is important.



Good conversation
Peace to you brother

No, I was not referring back to your post #55.

I have not stated my position because I do not have a firm position that I believe can be legitimately supported with Scripture. In my opinion, what I have seen from you does not support the view that you hold.

More later, D.V.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings again SMA. Hope and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have not stated my position because I do not have a firm position that I believe can be legitimately supported with Scripture.

That is unfortunate, imo.

In my opinion, what I have seen from you does not support the view that you hold.

I'm not sure to what degree we will ever come together then, if the Word of God is not the foundation of your theology concerning spiritual matters. But let me present my position in regards to Satan's fall based solely upon my attempt to see what God's Word is telling us. Since it is not clear to me you know my position fully. Feel free to attack it.

1. The Genesis 3:1-24 account is a presentation of a one-whole-fall story. The story of Genesis 3 depicts a unified in-concert fall of all three of its characters at the same time (Adam, Eve, Satan). It does not distinguish any significance of a logical first but later only reveals a "responsible", i.e, Adam (Rom 5:12).

If you deny this, please explain why.

2. Genesis 3:16-17 gives the first curse of Adam and Even.

3. Genesis 3:14 gives a first and only curse in the biblical text of Satan. It uses descriptive language to describe Satan's fall from grace (crawling on the belly and eating dust is an ancient poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace).

4. Therefore the Genesis 3 story is a recording of the first ever fall of Adam, Eve, and Satan within the biblical text (since the story depicts them falling in concert together).

The topic of this thread is "Satan's Fall". So what other biblical text supports my #4, which would seem the plain reading of Genesis 3 that Satan's first fall was here in the garden with Adam and Eve.

A. Genesis 1:1-31 is a single, unified story of creation told in six chronological days. In other words, Genesis 1 is clearly meant as one whole story. In Genesis 1:31 it says, "Then God saw everything that He had made". Everything He had made includes the story from start to finish. From the start of the story it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...". Therefore, Satan’s fall could not have been any earlier than everything that came before the declaration in Genesis 1:31. This includes the creation of man and woman (Gen 1:27), God’s command to be fruitful and multiply (Gen 1:28), and God’s command giving dominion over it (Gen 1:28).

B. Romans 5:12 tells us that "through one man sin entered the world". Sin is any thought, word, or act that transgresses, misses, or rebels against God's holy nature or standard. It would seem that Romans 5:12 can only be true if the story in Genesis 3 is a in-concert fall of all its characters at once. OR, holding that Genesis 3 is an in-concert-fall of all three characters is logically consistent with Romans 5:12.

C. Eze 28:12-19 gives us a taunt of the king of Tyre using metaphoric and typological language that gives a vivid mental picture of imagery for the profane. This mental imagery representing the profane is later revealed to use as representing one fallen angel, we call Satan. The text illustrates a fall from "exalted status" to being "cast out".

Key Phrases of Exalted Status (Eze 28:12-19)

1. You [were] the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
2. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God [cf. Genesis 3]
3. Every precious stone [was] your covering:
4. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
5. 14 "You [were] the anointed cherub who covers
6. You were on the holy mountain of God;
7. You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

Key observations about #2. The statement of being in the garden of Eden gives no clues to the "when" of a fall. Only that Satan was given dominion or had access to the garden of God due to his exalted status. This gives possible insight into how Satan might have come across Adam and Eve in the garden (and them not being surprised he was there). He might have come across them frequently (speculation), for due to his exalted status he had access to it. Further, the garden of Eden is on the mountain of God. Where it says Satan was also give access or stationed. This information would then dispel any assertion that Satan is by default "fallen already" because he has left his "domain" (for his domain was the garden of Eden and the Mountain of God).

D. 1 John 3:8 says, "the devil has sinned from the beginning". This could mean either (a) Satan's beginning, which is false since Eze 28 tells us Satan had an exalted status at his creation, being perfect in his ways UNTIL iniquity was found in him. Further, everything that God created was first good (Gen 1:31), for God does not have pleasure in wickedness (Psalm 5:4). Therefore, (b) John most likely means to refer to Genesis 3, scripture, and say that the devil has sinned from the beginning of the fall story (Gen 3). Supported by all I have written above.

E. Revelation 12:4. The second part of Revelation 12:4 makes reference to "the woman" and "her Child". It would appear that Revelation 12:4 is making reference to Genesis 3:15. Further, it seems to imply that the dragon knows the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 (for he waits to devour this child that he could know nothing about prior to God informing him of His plans). If this is the case then Revelation 12:4 could be no sooner than after the giving of the prophecy by God in Genesis 3:15. Therefore, Revelation 12:4 is the subsequent act of Satan after his first fall in Genesis 3. Satan, after deceiving Eve and falling in concert with Adam and Eve, possibly immediately influences (influence represented by "tail") a third of the angels (for the fall happened in the garden of Eden which is on the mountain of God) and immediately coordinates them to thwart God's prophecy (which Satan was just informed of). He immediately starts lying in wait (Gen 4), sowing seeds of corruption ("thy seed" is used as the concept of sowing seed not a biological seed of Satan), and corrupting mankind (Cain, who is revealed as "of the wicked one" (1John 5:19).


I have a little more but I'll stop there. What I have written appears sound. It would appear to be a natural reading, not looking for hidden text, or letting other theological concepts taint what appears the more natural understanding of the text.


Always seek God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6)

 

[Ben1445]

From the start of the story it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...". Therefore, Satan’s fall could not have been any earlier than everything that came before the declaration in Genesis 1:31.

I appreciate your points on the fall, but here I must point out some things about the timing of creation.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The word heaven is singular.
I think it was rightly stated that God made Time(in the beginning), space (heaven), and the earth (matter).


We are discussing the creation of a physical realm , lower than that of a spiritual realm consisting of angels.

Job 48:4-7
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


All the sons of God were there praising God at the creation of the world.

I recognize the creation of things physical as after things spiritual.
(This doesn’t leave any room for the “Satan was in charge of a previous physical earth” fairytale.)

So I allow that Satan’s fall potentially could have happened before the physical creation because there did exist other creation outside of the physical creation.

But I appreciate the conversation and will keep reading along.

 

[Paleouss]

I appreciate your points on the fall, but here I must point out some things about the timing of creation.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The word heaven is singular.

I'm assuming you are going off KJV? It says "heaven", singular. But the NKJV says "heavens", plural. The noun shamayim (שָׁמַיִם), appears plural grammatically, at first blush. Regardless of that dispute...it seems I remember that when the OT wants to mean "everything that exists" it pares "heaven" and "earth" together to demonstrate two separate realms being as everything. Thus, Gen 1:1 by pairing the two is saying, God created everything that exists, spiritual and earthly.

Your reference to Job, I accept. However, I don't think the Job verses necessitate that Genesis 1:1 doesn't mean everything that exists both spiritual and physical. I agree that Genesis 1:2 is the start of the creation of the physical world and may possibly be paired with the Job verses. However, the Job verse appears to me to just mean that when God laid the foundation of the "earth" ('ereṣ), the angels were present. That makes sense to me if the heavens were made first, which is the order of Gen 1:1, and then the earth.

So it sounds like this hinges, for you, off of the translation of heaven to either singular or plural.



Peace brother.

 

[kyredneck]

the NKJV says "heavens"

Genesis 1:1 - The Creation

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

biblehub.com

New International Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New Living Translation
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

English Standard Version
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Berean Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

King James Bible
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

New King James Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

NASB 1995
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

NASB 1977
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Legacy Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Amplified Bible
In the beginning God (Elohim) created [by forming from nothing] the heavens and the earth.

Berean Annotated Bible
In the beginning God {Elohim} created the heavens and the earth.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

American Standard Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

English Revised Version
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.

Good News Translation
In the beginning, when God created the universe,

International Standard Version
In the beginning, God created the universe.

NET Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New Heart English Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

World English Bible
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth,

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --

Smith's Literal Translation
In the beginning God formed the heavens and the earth.

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

Catholic Public Domain Version
In the beginning, God created heaven and earth.

New American Bible
In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth —

New Revised Standard Version
In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,

Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
GOD created the heavens and the earth in the very beginning.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.

OT Translations
JPS Tanakh 1917
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.

 

[kyredneck]

2nd Corinthians Chapter 12

2​	I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.

 

[kyredneck]

All the sons of God were there praising God at the creation of the world.

Though not praising, they were there AFTER creation also (i.e., not kicked out of heaven yet):

Job Chapter 1

6​	Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.

Job Chapter 2

1​	Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan came also among them to present himself before Jehovah.

Luke Chapter 22

31​	Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat:

1st Kings Chapter 22

19​	And Micaiah said, Therefore hear thou the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20​	And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner.
21​	And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him.
22​	And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23​	Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee.

 

[Ben1445]

Though not praising, they were there AFTER creation also (i.e., not kicked out of heaven yet):

Job Chapter 1

6​	Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.

Job Chapter 2

1​	Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan came also among them to present himself before Jehovah.

Luke Chapter 22

31​	Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat:

1st Kings Chapter 22

19​	And Micaiah said, Therefore hear thou the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20​	And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner.
21​	And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him.
22​	And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23​	Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee.

What is all this supposed to tell me? I don’t follow your thought process.
I am aware of the activity of spiritual beings.
I mentioned that myself to bring up a point of interest.
I don’t see the relevance to the discussion.

 

[Ben1445]

Genesis 1:1 - The Creation

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

biblehub.com

New International Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New Living Translation
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

English Standard Version
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Berean Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

King James Bible
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

New King James Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

NASB 1995
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

NASB 1977
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Legacy Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Amplified Bible
In the beginning God (Elohim) created [by forming from nothing] the heavens and the earth.

Berean Annotated Bible
In the beginning God {Elohim} created the heavens and the earth.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

American Standard Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

English Revised Version
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.

Good News Translation
In the beginning, when God created the universe,

International Standard Version
In the beginning, God created the universe.

NET Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New Heart English Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

World English Bible
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth,

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --

Smith's Literal Translation
In the beginning God formed the heavens and the earth.

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

Catholic Public Domain Version
In the beginning, God created heaven and earth.

New American Bible
In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth —

New Revised Standard Version
In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,

Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
GOD created the heavens and the earth in the very beginning.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.

OT Translations
JPS Tanakh 1917
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.

Now sort out the “versions” (boards, and even individuals opinions about revisions) from the “translations” (people who actually translated from the original language what they see the original language said).

 

[Ben1445]

I'm assuming you are going off KJV? It says "heaven", singular. But the NKJV says "heavens", plural. The noun shamayim (שָׁמַיִם), appears plural grammatically, at first blush.

What you posit means that God decided after eternity past, suddenly, to make Himself a place of His own abode, or throne.
That’s fine and there is plenty of room for that.
I did notice, for what it is worth, that it is the dual form of an unused singular. Since the singular is unused, the there is not much value in noting the plural, if you want to take it that far.

Regardless of that dispute...it seems I remember that when the OT wants to mean "everything that exists" it pares "heaven" and "earth" together to demonstrate two separate realms being as everything.

That is as much supposition as my position mentioned earlier. In the English, there may be room for either.

Thus, Gen 1:1 by pairing the two is saying, God created everything that exists, spiritual and earthly.

But again, that is based on your reading, while mine explains time, space, and matter.

Your reference to Job, I accept. However, I don't think the Job verses necessitate that Genesis 1:1 doesn't mean everything that exists both spiritual and physical.

If the sons of God shouted when the foundations of the earth were laid, they would have been there when the foundations were laid. That means they were there for the foundations laid down in Genesis 1:1.

It doesn’t just say when the earth was laid. It says when the foundations of the earth were laid. The foundations are present in 1:2 and declared in 1:1.

I agree that Genesis 1:2 is the start of the creation of the physical world

By Genesis 1:2, the physical world has been brought out of nothing, and it is the beginning of the forming of the physical universe.

and may possibly be paired with the Job verses.

There is no reason to doubt it. It is the same subject matter.

However, the Job verse appears to me to just mean that when God laid the foundation of the "earth" ('ereṣ), the angels were present. That makes sense to me if the heavens were made first, which is the order of Gen 1:1, and then the earth.

That is a fair point and I acknowledge that there is room for it.
I don’t have a settled opinion on all of creation. I allow for any view that there is room for though I may not hold the view myself.

So it sounds like this hinges, for you, off of the translation of heaven to either singular or plural.

As above, there is more to it than singular and plural. I appreciate your trying to simplify, but it isn’t that simple.
There are also some pre-Adam civilizations that the Genesis text does not allow for, that drives some people’s thinking. It is possible that some of my own thoughts have been influenced to far in another direction because of a desire to steer far away from strange ideas.

Peace brother.

I appreciate the time. Thanks for your thoughtful replies.