Holy Spirit in OT believers, or upon OT believers?

[Dave...]

The contention between people is the capacity in which the Prophets, and some kings etc. had the Holy Spirit. It's not taught in Scripture that the general Old Testament believer had this, no matter how one defines what the prophets, kings and a few others had. The common believer had the presence of God when those Prophets etc. who had the Holy Spirit were near them. They had the presence of God in the Temple, and they had the presence of God in Jesus, God incarnate. So, setting the common believer aside, unless one wants to offer Biblical proof that indicates something other that what I wrote here.

I want to get into some of these proof verses used to prove that the holy Spirit was in OT Prophets. Start with these.

-----------------
Genesis 41:38, This is Pharaoh recognizing that the Spirit of God is working through Joseph. It's Pharaohs perspective recorded, and he could not know if the Spirit of God was in Joseph or upon him. He only recognized that what happened through Joseph was from God, not Joseph. It's called a 'narrative description' rather than a source for strict systematic doctrine. This does not teach that the Holy Spirit was in him.
-----------------
Numbers 27:18 There is no "the" before the word "spirit" in the original languages of this passage, only "spirit". KJV translators added "the" it to make the English smoother, and was never added to make the claim the the Spirit was within him. It literally reads "a man in whom is spirit". The lack of the definite article has most credible theologians agreeing that that passage is speaking of a quality, or attitude of spirit. However, in Numbers 11:17, we see how the Hebrew language works when they want to specify the Divine source, they use a definite article. Speaking to Moses.....Numbers 11:17 " Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone." This is not teaching that the holy spirit was in him.
------------------
Isaiah 63:11 KJV reflects back to that same Numbers 11:17. Remember, "upon you", and "upon them" from Numbers 11:17? Same people. The literal translation options for Isaiah 63:11 are "in the midst," "the inner part," or "among them". When applied to the camp of Israel, a collective group (which is what "within him" from Isaiah 63:11 is speaking of), it's always translated "in the midst", or "among them". Remember, the singular suffix ("his") in Isaiah 63:11 refers to the corporate body of Israel.

 

[Ben1445]

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


The Holy Spirit was not given as we have received Him now until after the ascension of Jesus Christ.

(Not sure how this is an Arminian-Calvinist issue)

 

[kyredneck]

2011 - Were OT Saints Indwelt?

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I know that the indwelling Holy Spirit is very much a distinction of New Testament believers. In the Old Testament, you had the "Shekinah Glory" presence of God in the temple and it was for this reason that OT Believers prayed toward this temple because they were praying towards the very presence of God according to their understanding.

In the New Testament, we have the indwelling Holy Spirt and for a NT Believer, their very body IS the temple of the Holy Ghost!

We have this distinction and some try to associate this with "regeneration" and with David's prayer to "Take not thine Holy Spirit from me," some assumed such meant that one could actually "lose their salvation" in the OT which I adamantly reject. Regeneration is regeneration and justification is justification.

Men were "Annointed" for a special calling or task in the OT and I am not against associating such to NT believers (cultivating, exercising of spiritual gifts?). Such an annointing was different from the "seal of the Holy Spirit" and its being the "earnest of our inheritance" and so forth. I therefore believe that when David pleaded with God to "take not thine Holy Spirit from me" he was speaking of his annointing to be king and the covenant that God had established with him. God had taken this very same annointing from Saul and I'm certain David was quite mindful of this as he made this plea!

 

[Dave...]

2011 - Were OT Saints Indwelt?

That work by Hamilton sounds familiar. I'm sure that I've read it before, but a long time ago. One thing that I find odd about this whole debate is there is never a verse in the OT that I know of that says that actual believers were indwelt in the OT. The OT always uses people who were commanded by God to accomplish something (not coming to faith) who had the Spirit put upon them. Some people think that "upon" and "in" are the same thing. Some people think that it's the NT that allows the Spirit of God to have a union with the Spirit of Christ, but I've seen the Holy Spirit called the Spirit of Christ in the OT. Jonah comes to mind. I still suspect that there could be a difference beyond the obvious in relationship between believer and the Holy Spirit from the OT Holy Spirit and the NT Holy Spirit, something having to do with the works of Christ being accomplished. I believe the Holy Spirit coming upon at Pentecost would be explained by that. Either the disciples actually received the Holy Spirit Promised indwelling when Jesus breathed on them (still after the death and resurrection, but before the ascension), which could explain the "upon" in early Acts, or something else is going on. The translations are not always the best, so that's always something to keep an eye on.

I try to use the clear scripture to make a path, then I take a second look at some of the stuff that does line up perfect. There just so much that defines what happened at Pentecost, it's hard to rewrite all that for a few passages that don't line up perfectly.

Some people appeal to David asking the Father not to take His Spirit from Him, but that passage does not specify indwelling. And there are so many verses speaking of the coming of the Holy spirit, not a dose, but the actual indwelling, which is what the baptism with the Holy Spirit is.

 

[kyredneck]

“…When I consider passages such as this:

I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil. Ps 119:162

or this:

But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night. Ps 1:2

or these:

16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word. GIMEL.
18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold Wondrous things out of thy law. Ps 119

...and then consider that those OT Saints had only a fraction of the scriptures that we have; it was incomplete and lacking the fulfillment/revelation of the NT, and yet they were able to derive great joy and delight from meditating in the law. I don't think the natural man void of the Spirit could derive that sort of pleasure from those incomplete writings (or even in the Bible we have today for that matter), the Spirit had to be the source of the joy.

jmho…”

 

[YeshuaistheLord]

I know that the indwelling Holy Spirit is very much a distinction of New Testament believers. In the Old Testament, you had the "Shekinah Glory" presence of God in the temple and it was for this reason that OT Believers prayed toward this temple because they were praying towards the very presence of God according to their understanding.

In the New Testament, we have the indwelling Holy Spirt and for a NT Believer, their very body IS the temple of the Holy Ghost!

We have this distinction and some try to associate this with "regeneration" and with David's prayer to "Take not thine Holy Spirit from me," some assumed such meant that one could actually "lose their salvation" in the OT which I adamantly reject. Regeneration is regeneration and justification is justification.

Men were "Annointed" for a special calling or task in the OT and I am not against associating such to NT believers (cultivating, exercising of spiritual gifts?). Such an annointing was different from the "seal of the Holy Spirit" and its being the "earnest of our inheritance" and so forth. I therefore believe that when David pleaded with God to "take not thine Holy Spirit from me" he was speaking of his annointing to be king and the covenant that God had established with him. God had taken this very same annointing from Saul and I'm certain David was quite mindful of this as he made this plea!

The Holy Spiirt came upon Prophets Kings Priests but for specific tasks and calling not indwelling and sealed in all it seems

 

[Dave...]

“…When I consider passages such as this:

I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil. Ps 119:162

or this:

But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night. Ps 1:2

or these:

16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word. GIMEL.
18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold Wondrous things out of thy law. Ps 119

...and then consider that those OT Saints had only a fraction of the scriptures that we have; it was incomplete and lacking the fulfillment/revelation of the NT, and yet they were able to derive great joy and delight from meditating in the law. I don't think the natural man void of the Spirit could derive that sort of pleasure from those incomplete writings (or even in the Bible we have today for that matter), the Spirit had to be the source of the joy.

jmho…”

The Light

He could if that Word was a light. Just like Jesus was the Word, and the Word became flesh. The Word which was light, became flesh, which was still light. could the Word be the same as the presence of God?

Psalms 36:9 For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light.

Psalm 19:8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes;

I think that's why the OT was mostly in type, because they could not see it any other way. It was laid out in pictures. That's why they didn't really have a true understanding of the deeper truths until the NT indwelling, which is where a person is indwelt, placed into Christ, and as a result, placed into His death and raised up with Him, born again (Romans 6:3-11).

John 16:12-15 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

They only needed enough light to be drawn and believe. They can get that without the indwelling and without being born again. Jesus kind of shed some light on the belief part here. Speaking of Himself, the light again...(I believe the emphasis should be on the presence of God), He said this...

John 12:34-36 The people answered Him, "We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?" Then Jesus said to them, "A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

Could a person receive light without the Spirit within them? I think so, since the Spirit was not yet given when Jesus said that. I think it's important to make a distinction between believing, and the life we receive as a result, also sometimes called faith. I know the Calvinist way is to see them both as a the same, but I think the Bible makes a distinction between the two, believing, and the life, called faith that results. We should too. To apply a specific verse that's speaking of the initial faith, to the ongoing faith, the life, or the ongoing faith, to the initial believing, or both, is going to create what Calvinism does. The life is the distinction between the two. Believe and receive the life with the indwelling. Initial believing can still be from God, but it's not from being born again. Being born again is the result of believing. I believe that there is a prevenient grace, albeit limited in the OT, from the Light.

Here's one verse of more that makes the distinction. Remember, believe and receive the indwelling (Ephesians 1:13-14, Galatians 3:2-3), is the same as believe and receive the life. Which is the same as a Gospel message, believe and receive eternal life (John 3:16). We don't have life without the Holy Spirit indwelling (Romans 8:9-11).

OT-John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

The light can be a source of joy. His Word is a light to my path. The Word is light. Jesus is light, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word became flesh. Jesus said that if they believed Moses, they would believe Him, because Moses testified of Him. a lot to be joyful for, even if they were not born again.

Just to throw a wrench into the equation. We are called to count it all joy, even suffering. Job, the Lord gives, and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

I know that the indwelling Holy Spirit is very much a distinction of New Testament believers. In the Old Testament, you had the "Shekinah Glory" presence of God in the temple and it was for this reason that OT Believers prayed toward this temple because they were praying towards the very presence of God according to their understanding.

In the New Testament, we have the indwelling Holy Spirt and for a NT Believer, their very body IS the temple of the Holy Ghost!

We have this distinction and some try to associate this with "regeneration" and with David's prayer to "Take not thine Holy Spirit from me," some assumed such meant that one could actually "lose their salvation" in the OT which I adamantly reject. Regeneration is regeneration and justification is justification.

Men were "Annointed" for a special calling or task in the OT and I am not against associating such to NT believers (cultivating, exercising of spiritual gifts?). Such an annointing was different from the "seal of the Holy Spirit" and its being the "earnest of our inheritance" and so forth. I therefore believe that when David pleaded with God to "take not thine Holy Spirit from me" he was speaking of his annointing to be king and the covenant that God had established with him. God had taken this very same annointing from Saul and I'm certain David was quite mindful of this as he made this plea!

AA

I would add to that it's only assumed that David was indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Based on the entire OT, I believe it's more proper to assume that the Holy Spirit was upon David, as He was only 'upon' with all the other Prophets and kings, etc. according to the testimony of Scripture. In that way, the Holy Spirit could still be taken away, but it would not be God's NT seal broken.

Also, I believe that the reason that OT believers were not indwelt (NT believers called the Temple of the Holy Spirit), is because there was no blood to cleanse the Temple [of the Holy Spirit], us. After the DRA, the Holy Spirit can enter a believer with the blood of Christ. Until then, I don't think that God could join himself with us because we were unclean without that blood. The Temple in the OT, and the Tabernacle etc., pictures this necessity of purity to be in the presence of the Holy of Holies. this is why OT believers, both physically dead and physically alive, had to wait to receive that promise.

This is why no OT believers where allowed in the presence of God until the DRA. (Hebrews 11:39-40, John 3:13-14)

This is why the Holy Spirit could only be upon some in the OT, but not in them, me thinks.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. Isa 57

See Gal 4:28-29:

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.

from the link provided by @kyredneck from page one.

In English

Galatians 4:28-29 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

The birth of Isaac was a miracle, thus he was born of the Spirit. This doesn't doesn't mean that he was born again. Contrasted with Ishmael's birth with was anormal birth, thus from the flesh. It's an allegory. Ishmael represents trying to please God through the legalism, the Law, the flesh. Isaac represents our receiving life as a gift from God, grace.

---------------

Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

The Hebrew reader would immediately connect this passage to the physical Temple and the role of the Prophets within the community (Holy Spirit upon Prophets, Kings, etc., provides the presence of God for all who are around them). God cares more about the human heart than the condition of a Temple. This points directly to the NT indwelling. But is not the indwelling itself.

--------------

It's just another example of the power of this presence of God, like with Jonah, who had the Spirit of Christ with Him (the Holy Spirit), and would not have converted Nineveh, a Gentile nation, without that Light of the presence of the Spirit of God and His Word. With the Spirit of Christ resting upon Jonah, he became a walking Temple of God,, though God was not within Him, like He is with all believers in the NT. The Light that was with Jonah outshone the vessel. It's really cool and far reaching in Scripture when you think about it.

We in the NT have this light in us to draw people with it's spiritual power. That's what Jesus was trying to articulate when he said that a light doesn't hide under the table, speaking of us believers. He is the Light, His Word is the Light. And "you will have power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you" at Pentecost. The power is the light within us.