Featured Where was Lazarus?

The answer to all is yes.

Paul is speaking of the glorified body, and what he states is that we desire to be in that body but that does not mean we desire to be...dead.

He is in fact stating a desire to be raptured.

For the Church, yes, but not for all of the Saints. The Church is taken up prior to the Tribulation, and the next Resurrection is the Resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses, then the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.

There is what could be considered a "general" resurrection following the Millennial Kingdom, at which point at the very least we are told that the lost/dead/unjust are raised to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment.

It should be carefully noted that only those (in this Age) who are born again are raised in the Rapture, and only those born again during the Tribulation are raised after the Tribulation (though only those who died). Those born again during the Tribulation who physically survive will enter into the Kingdom, and while it may be possible that they are glorified at death, it is also possible they are raised in the general resurrection.


God bless.

 

You could just talk with a few Baptists and correct the "undertsanding you have now.

Again I ask...what Baptist group are you affiliated with and does your leadership teach that believers go to Hades when they die now.


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That's the focal point of what we are discussing, lol:

You are wrong that "everybody who dies goes there (only in Old Testament Times), you are wrong that everyone who dies goes there to await resurrection, and the focal point...you are wrong to equate Hell, Hades, and the Grave.

You are wrong to say...

And you have been corrected on that in the case of the Grave.

As pointed out before, there is only one instance of Hades being translated grave in the New Testament, and that is a context of bodily resurrection into glorified form, and does not negate what we are told elsewhere.

Many of which verses have been presented to you.

Here is an few examples:

I re-post this because you have never discussed it or addressed it, then say...

None of the scripture you quoted supports you.

If not...show why it does not support my view.


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Look guys, when you insist that something lives on after the death of the body, then you are insisting that the spirit and/or soul lives independent of the body. All three components, body, soul & spirit are interdependent upon each other. When the body dies everything stops.

But the real issue is this: IF you say that something lives on after the death of the believer you are then insisting that something was good in that believer (E.G.., grandma has gone to heaven).

The Apostle Paul said, "I know that in me dwells nothing good". To state that something is good in the believer is a form of self-righteousness. The believer can then make the argument that his body is evil, but his soul and/or spirit is good.

If something in you is good, and independent of the resurrection goes to heaven on its own, then it doesn't need the righteousness of Christ. That means it, the soul and/or spirit, has natural immorality and goodness. Such teaching is pagan.

My two cents...

BTW, I can't debate you on this according to the rules....I am Christian, but I don't belong to a denomination. Neither am I non-denominational .

 

It is a Biblical Doctrine, lol.

You have to agree that men have gone to Hades, right?

And you have to agree that men will be taken from Hades and, if lost...cast into the Lake of Fire, which is not Hades, and is not the Grave.

It's pretty simple to derive a "temporary punishment from Scripture in regards to Hades, and to distinguish between it and Eternal Judgment.

Here is more Scripture you have ignored:

The Beast and the False Prophet...do not go to Hades.

And at the end of the Millennial Kingdom...



Revelation 20:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Death, Hades, and the Lake of Fire, which is the Hell Christ taught about (gehenna)...

are not the same concepts, but three distinctly different concepts.

See the links. Do a little study.


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Whether one views it as a parable or not is not the focal point. I don't have a problem with that...most people do.

But what I do take issue with is the nonsense that Believers go to Hades when they die in this Age, and Soul Sleep:

That is a doctrine of cults and has no place in the Doctrinal Position of a born again believer who has New Testament Revelation.

Old Testament Saints may have treated it this way, but Scripture does not. The understanding of the Old Testament Saint was limited, but...

...you have no such excuse.


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It fits with the Parables Christ taught and is properly identified as a parable.

The Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not.

But again, it is not something I see as important. If you want to see it as a parable, great. The problem you will have is precisely what you have shown...you try to read into it beyond the intent of the meaning of the teaching.

To the point where you lose all sight of what it was intended to teach you. And because of this, you have adopted the doctrine of cults.

This is true, but, unlike the Old Testament Saint, He went there as the Conqueror of Hades.

Quite a distinction, wouldn't you agree?

All of the Scriptures I quoted support my view.

And until you address them and show why they don't, you will continue to fail to understand what it is you believe, and place that into a Biblical Context.

What part of my description of my position did you not understand?

It is not Hell in view...it is Hades.

Death has no power in regards to believers, and the gates that once held men in Hades could not hold them in when Christ conquered death, and they no longer hold power over believers that die.


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I did. Had you bothered to address the commentary given as to how this is relevant, we would not be here again wasting time.

Post #30 goes into some detail as to why it is relevant, and your response?

I did, it was ignored.

Though this is a fairly cut and dry passage: most don't have trouble understanding what Paul is saying here.

lol

You leave out why he states and. Read it again, and this time leave it in a Biblical Context:



2 Corinthians 5:5-8
King James Version (KJV)

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



In other words Paul is saying "While we are in this mortal body we are not in the Lord's presence, but we are confident that, when we are absent from the mortal body we will be present with the Lord."

Just not a hard passage to understand, although it might take a little more understanding of resurrection as a whole to understand the Rapture Paul desires.


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Not in my mind, lol...in the posts, for anyone to comment on. Again I ask you, what kind of Baptist are you, and does your leadership teach what you believe.

I am beginning to think you may be a "secret agent" for a group that is not Baptist at all.

First, the Bosom of Abraham does not equate to being in the presence of God.

Secondly, the passage makes it clear that Paul distinguishes between the physical body and the body made in Heaven, which is the glorified body:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


Being "found naked" is a reference to dying and being in spirit form, rather than having the "house which is from Heaven."

What he is saying is that "We groan, desiring that heavenly body, rather than simply being absent from the physical body, which would leave us naked (without either body)."

Comment on that and we will proceed further in looking at this.


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Think of that all by yourself, did you?

Depends on the context. My judgment lies in Christ. What you are failing to do is to understand Paul is speaking about our personal deeds/words. Two entirely different issues.

Again, we can distinguish that in view is the physical body, or physical existence, as contrasted with existence without a body, and existence in the heavenly body.

So I have no idea why you think this relevant.

Great. But let's not take your word for it, how about actually presenting Scripture.

Now the question I would ask you is, if judgment comes after resurrection, rather than death itself (for the Saints)...

...which resurrection do you think judgment comes after?

The resurrection of the Church, the Two Witnesses, the Tribulation Martyrs, or the Dead who are raised after the Millennial Kingdom?


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I have yet to see any Scripture, much less have it agree with you.

You're not even correct in the original point I addressed, yet you will not cede the point.

And you have yet to show why the Scripture I have posted does not support my view.

This is just an excuse...not to address the Scripture provided.

We all have opinions, my friend, but opinions have to be kept distinct from Biblical Doctrine. It is my opinion, for example, that The Gates of Hades primarily refers to the concept of death (and the consequences thereof), but, it is a Biblical Doctrine that Believers go to be with God when they die in this Age. It is debated if they did prior to the Cross, but, no Baptist group I know of teaches that Believers go to Hades where they know nothing.

Only cults teach that.

And even if one were ignorant of the New Testament to the point where they thought Soul Sleep were taught in Scripture, we cannot even support a unconscious existence for men in Hades, for it is clear that neither the Rich Man nor Lazarus were in an unconscious sleep.

I have done that.

You have refused to address what you are now...demanding I do. lol.

So address what I have said, and we will take it from there.


God bless.

 

Supposedly I can't debate here. I think that's a crazy rule, but it's not my website and therefore I'll stay in my little box!

Anyway, if your not chicken come here: http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/does-fallen-mankind-have-an-immortal-soul.103797/