Are there Apostles today?

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Look in verse 1. God spoke in various ways at different times in the Old Testament times through the prophets. How (in what ways) did he speak through the prophets during the times. Consider a few:

1. He spoke to Samuel in an audible voice.
2. He spoke to Daniel in visions.
3. He spoke to Joseph in dreams.
4. He wrestled with Jacob (as the angel of the Lord--a Christophany), and left him with an injured thigh for the rest of his life.
5. He dined and talked with Abraham face to face (a theophany) before Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.
6. He warned Balaam through the mouth of a donkey.

As verse one indicates God used different methods of Revelation in different times of history during the Old Testament times.

But it is not so. In these last days "he has spoken to us by his son," the Creator.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God the Word came down and dwelt in the flesh among men.
Everything that we need to know about Christ is contained in the pages of this book we call the Bible. We do not need any other revelation whatsoever. Revelation has ceased.
Heed the warnings of Scripture:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Being at the end of the Bible, this verse, by extension is applicable to the Bible as a whole. Don't add your so-called revelatory words to the Bible. There is no revelation that is being given out today.

Then you must not believe in preacher's being called. The Bible does not have a list of names of all the preacher's who would be called. A lot of preacher's I know can tell you how the Holy Spirit kept revealing to them they were called. And this isn't just Charismatics or Pentecostals. Plenty of Baptists can tell you this.

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This is a red herring, and has nothing to do with revelation or the spiritual gift thereof. I was called to the mission field. Before then I was called to preach. The Lord led me. The Lord called me. That has nothing whatsoever to do with revelation. God did not give me any new revelation in leading me to the mission field. He directed me there. He gave me the peace that that was the place that He wanted me to be. He didn't tell me in an audible voice: "DHK go to..." God doesn't use those methods any longer. He says so in Heb.1:1,2.

And what about conviction of sin. Doesn't the Holy Spirit reveal to people's hearts that they are in sin?

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Absolutely. This is the major part of the Holy Spirit's ministry today.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Bible uses 'revelation' in a broader sense than just revealing of scripture.

And the Bible is crystal clear that not all revelation in the past was put into scripture. Some real prophecies were even left out. So why would we have to put all the prophecies int he world into the Bible?

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There are two other ways that revelation are used:
1. When it was needful to have extra revelation for the first century church, because they had not yet the complete canon of Scripture. Thus God gave them the gift of revelation, along with prophecy for this purpose. It ceased at the end of the first century.

2. And of course today, it is used in a totally unsciptural way, where half the Charismatics are madly yelling out: God gave me a revelation! God gave me a revelation! These are lies. God has given all the revelation he is ever going to give. It is in the Bible. All other forms of revelation outside the Bible are not of God.
DHK

DHK,
You quote two verses about God revealing Himself through Christ and then conclude that God only speaks through the Bible? That does not make sense. Please show me verses that say God will only speak through scripture.


Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Notice that Christ promised to send prophets in Matthew 23. In Acts and I Corinthians, we see men in the church referred to as ‘prophets.’ This passage in Hebrews contrasts God speaking through prophets in the past and now through His Son. But it does not say that God would no longer speak through prophets. To interpret it to say that there would be no more prophets would be to contradict Christ, Luke, and Paul.


>>> John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God the Word came down and dwelt in the flesh among men.
Everything that we need to know about Christ is contained in the pages of this book we call the Bible. We do not need any other revelation whatsoever. Revelation has ceased. <<

I don’t follow your line of reasoning. You aren’t saying that the Bible is the word made flesh are you? Or are you just making a new assertion that has nothing to do with your previous line of reasoning?

Btw, I would not disagree, in a sense, that everything we need to know about Christ is in the Bible, in terms of facts. But we need revelation from the Spirit in order to believe and understand it. Peter knew Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, because the Father revealed it to him.

>>Heed the warnings of Scripture:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Being at the end of the Bible, this verse, by extension is applicable to the Bible as a whole. Don't add your so-called revelatory words to the Bible. There is no revelation that is being given out today. <<

If you want to apply this verse so loosely, apply it loosely to yourself as well. Do not ‘add’ to this verse by making it say something that it does not. This verse does not say that anyone who gets a revelation is adding to scripture. This verse, specifically is about the ‘scroll of prophecy’ we call Revelation.

It is illogical to say that if someone gets a prophecy, it should be added to scripture. Why? Because the Bible is clear that not all prophecy in the past was added to scripture. I’ve gone over this several times in the past. What did Saul prophesy? Show me the words of his prophecy in the scripture? What did that last thunderclap say in revelation? What did the man who went to the third heaven hear? We don’t know. These revelations were not included in scripture.

So if past revelations were not included in scripture, then it does not make sense to say that all revelation belongs in scripture. In fact, it is illogical and unscriptural to argue for such a thing.

And if no all revelation is in scripture, then it is illogical to argue that all modern revelation must be added to scripture.

>>This is a red herring, and has nothing to do with revelation or the spiritual gift thereof. I was called to the mission field. Before then I was called to preach. The Lord led me. The Lord called me. That has nothing whatsoever to do with revelation. God did not give me any new revelation in leading me to the mission field.<<


This is not a red herring. It is very relevant. I suspect the issue here is how to define ‘revelation.’ You must be using it in a technical sense. I am not. I try to use it the way the term shows up in English translations of scripture, in a very straightforward sense. When God makes something known, that is a revelation. Peter knew Christ was the Son of God by revelation. Paul prayed for the church to have the spirit of revelation.

If God made known to you that you were supposed to go to the mission field then he revealed it to you. But this information is not in the Bible.

And if God can reveal to preachers that they are called, apart from the teaching of scripture, then there is extra-scriptural revelation going on. There is no way around that, unless you start defining the term ‘revelation’ in a fancy way that confuses the issue.

If God ONLY speaks through scripture, how can a preacher know he is called? Did you find out about your call by using Torah codes to find your name in the Bible? Of course not. The Bible does not limit God to speaking through scripture. Neither should our theology.

*** He directed me there. He gave me the peace that that was the place that He wanted me to be. He didn't tell me in an audible voice: "DHK go to..." God doesn't use those methods any longer. He says so in Heb.1:1,2. ***

First of all, I never said God had to speak through an audible voice. That seems to have been very rare, even in the OT. Secondly, Hebrews 1:1-2 says nothing about God speaking through audible voices and does not eliminate the role of prophet for the reasons mentioned above.


There are two other ways that revelation are used:
>>1. When it was needful to have extra revelation for the first century church, because they had not yet the complete canon of Scripture. <<

Show me where the Bible states that this was the reason for such revelations. This looks like an extra-Biblical doctrine to me.

>>Thus God gave them the gift of revelation, along with prophecy for this purpose. It ceased at the end of the first century. <<

Show me this in scripture.

Link

Amen Brother Link!

Originally posted by Link:
Show me where the Bible states that this was the reason for such revelations. This looks like an extra-Biblical doctrine to me.

>>Thus God gave them the gift of revelation, along with prophecy for this purpose. It ceased at the end of the first century. <<

Show me this in scripture.

Link

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There are many Scriptures. This one passage should suffice for now.

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

First our salvation was spoken of by the Lord.
Then it was confirmed to "us," (those receiving the epistle of the Hebrews).
Next, It was confirmed by them that heard Him--in other words the Apostles. Thus the Gospel message was confirmed or authenticated by the Apostles. How was it confirmed?
"both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost"
The signs and wonders, and gifts of the Holy Spirit were specifically given to authenticate the message of the gospel in the first century, and especially to authenticate the Apostles--the primary 'message-sent-ones.' Thus once the Apostolic Age was over, these signs and wonders had fulfilled their purpose and were no longer needed. They were a sign for a short period of time--the Apostolic Age. We don't have apostles today. We don't have signs and wonders and the spiritual gifts. They all ceased at the end of the first century when the last apostle (John) died, and the last book of the canon of Scripture was finished. We don't need them any more. We have the revelation that God wants us to have. It is called the Bible.
DHK

DHK sais this scripture should cover it:

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Tam says:

By your own scripture you have didproved your own theory. It says first began.

The word confirmed does not mean END, it mean established, as in confirmed that it was real. It also says that these things happened accoding to his own will.

That scripture doesn't prove your point. Would you like to try another, or would you just like to admit now that you have it wrong?

(Tam ducks for cover and sheilds her head from the hatchet)

Working for Jesus,

Tam

Fear not Tam, it's turkey season.

DHK
It was confirmed by them that heard Him--in other words the Apostles. Thus the Gospel message was confirmed or authenticated by the Apostles. How was it confirmed? "both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost".

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Confirmation of DHK's post is given in 2 Cor.12:11-12:

".....I (Paul) am not in the least inferior to the 'super apostles,' even though I am nothing. The things that mark an apostle - signs, wonders and miracles - were done among you with great perseverance."

Reiterated in Acts 2:43; 5:12.

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

DHK sais this scripture should cover it:

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Tam says:

By your own scripture you have didproved your own theory. It says first began.

The word confirmed does not mean END,

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Actually (as prophecynut has also verified in other Scriptures) it does mean END.

Take a look again:
so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us

The "was confirmed" means exactly what it says. It was confirmed by the first century apostles. It ended It was confirmed, established. It is now over, kaput. It has been confirmed.

Now what?
Heed the words of Jesus very carefully:
An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; but there shall be no sign given unto them but the sign of Jonas, for as Jonas was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

What sign do we have today? The Bible--the gospel. Nothing else.
DHK

Maybe you guys should start a separate thread on this, hmm? You are not talking about apostleship at all.

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Signs and wonders and divers miracles shows that they did not cease, (no matter what the scholers say). there are still Apostles today, as there were then, the 9 gifts of the Sprit are still in effect.

I know that because the bible tells me so. I don't go by mans wisdom, but I prefer the word of God as my final authority!

And by the way Music, since that Hebrews scripture is talking about salvation too, it does seem that DHK is saying salvation has ceased.


Whats up with that???

Peace,

Tam

I know one thing..... we can't have it both ways. Theres contidition and some are getting flustered about this apostle topic. All I can do is read the word and it shows us what apostles did and then I look around at our missonaries and lo and behold! Most of them are doing the same thing. We have seen it proven out of the bible that there was more apostles than just the 12.

1Cor 12:27-30 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Josuah-24-15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Selah

Tam

Originally posted by music4Him:
I know one thing..... we can't have it both ways. Theres contidition and some are getting flustered about this apostle topic. All I can do is read the word and it shows us what apostles did and then I look around at our missonaries and lo and behold! Most of them are doing the same thing. We have seen it proven out of the bible that there was more apostles than just the 12.

1Cor 12:27-30 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

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That is a good passage to examine. Verse 29 and 30: look at them carefully. They ask a seried of rheorical questions: Do all have these gifts, and then he lists them all once again. The obvious answer is NO! All do not have the same gifts, tongues included. Yet the Charismatics claim that all should seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is evidenced by speaking in tongues. In other words we should all seek to speak in tongues--something that Paul says plainly that all do not have. And that was in the first century. Now that the first century has ceased no one has the gift of tongues, but the Charismatic has settled for a counterfeit of the real thing. Counterfeits are a dime a dozen. But they don't have value. That which has value is the original. But the original has ceased; passed away; just as Paul said it would. Let's do a comarison, just as Paul did in 1Cor.13.

Paul classifies the gifts into three different categories: permanent, semi-permenanent, and temporary. There is only one gift that is permanent, that will last forever, and will never end, and that is love.

Verse 8--Charity (love) never fails.
Verse 13--But the greatest of these is love.
Love will go on for all eternity; the others will not. Therefore love is the greatest of all the gifts.

Wht about faith and hope. They are semi-permanent gifts. They will not go on forever.
When will faith end.
"We walk by faith and not by sight." When Jesus comes we no longer will have need to walk by faith, for we shall see him as he is. We have faith in those things that are unseen. But when Christ comes, we shall see him. We no longer will have need of faith. Thus faith will end at the coming of Christ.

Likewise the same with hope.
Romans 8:24-25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
--Hope ends at the coming of Christ. When we see Christ we have no more need of hope. Our hope will be fulfilled at the coming of Christ. Our hope is in the blessed coming of the Lord. At his coming hope will end.

Thus faith and hope are semi-permanent, and will end at the coming of Christ.

What about the spiritual gifts, three of which are mentioned in verse 8--prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge?
--It is evident by the contrast between the gifts given that these gifts must end sometime before the coming of Christ. The only logical time for them to end would be at the end of the first century (when the Word of God was completed), or possibly at 70 A.D., when God's punishment came upon Israel, and tongues as a sign (1Cor. 14:21,22) was fulfilled. It had completed its purpose. it was no longer needed.
The only other reason for tongues that was valid was to confirm the apostles as valid messengers for the message of God (Heb.2:3,4). We see that by this Scripture God validated the message of salvation through his 12 apostles using signs and wonders, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Once they had passed off the scene there was no more need of them.

Consider also: There are twelve gates in the city of Jerusalem, each one having the name of one of the twelve apostles. Who are those names going to be. I know whose names they are going to be through a study of Scripture. They certainly won't be any modern day New Apostle movement. That would just be pure arrogance.

The twelve apostles in the millennial kingdom will each rule over one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Who will those apostles be? The office of the apostle has ceased, and along with it the signs and wonders, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Bible adamantly says so. Anyone who says otherwise, and is practicing otherwise has a counterfeit and not the real thing.
DHK

DHK said: The Bible adamantly says so. Anyone who says otherwise, and is practicing otherwise has a counterfeit and not the real thing.

Once again. I ask you to show me where the bible adamantly says so. Something besides ! Cor 13-10.

Tam

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

DHK said: The Bible adamantly says so. Anyone who says otherwise, and is practicing otherwise has a counterfeit and not the real thing.

Once again. I ask you to show me where the bible adamantly says so. Something besides ! Cor 13-10.

Tam

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Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
The them was the 12 Apostles, whom we don't have any more. The signs and wonders, the accompanying miracles, the gifts of the Holy Spirit--all mentioned above--were to confirm the Apostles--their apostolic authority and office in the first generation. The message that they preached at that time was new. The Word of God was not complete. God was saying: Look, these are the men whom I have put my stamp of approval upon for this generation. Their message is authoritative. The Lord God Jehovah did the same thing in the Old Testament with the Old Testament prophets. Thus the foundation of the Church is made up of the "prophets, the apostles, and Jesus Christ, with Christ being the chief corner stone. The prophets refer to the Old Testament prophets, which along with the New Testament Apostles make up the entirety of our Bible. The foundation of all of Christianity is based upon the Bible and Christ. If you deny the inspiriation of the Bible or the deity of Christ, then you have nothing to go by.
DHK

I answered that scripture once before. So here it is again:

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DHK sais this scripture should cover it:

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Tam says:

By your own scripture you have didproved your own theory. It says first began.

The word confirmed does not mean END, it mean established, as in confirmed that it was real. It also says that these things happened accoding to his own will.

That scripture doesn't prove your point. Would you like to try another, or would you just like to admit now that you have it wrong?

(Tam ducks for cover and sheilds her head from the hatchet)

Working for Jesus,

Tam

DHK
Thus the foundation of the Church is made up of the "prophets, the apostles, and Jesus Christ, with Christ being the chief corner stone. The prophets refer to the Old Testament prophets

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Cornerstone - a stone representing the nominal starting place in the construction of a building.

Christ is the chief cornerstone, Eph 2:20; 1 Pet. 2:6.

Approximately 8 months before His crucifixion Christ tells his disciples he will build his church (Mt. 16:18). It did not exist at this time.

Church begins at Pentecost 33 AD.

The laying of the cornerstone was fulfilled in Christ during his ministry.

The Church's foundation commences with the arrival of Pentecost.

On this foundation the building of Christ's body continues today, it will be finished in time for the Rapture.

The OT prophets, including John the Baptist, passed away before the foundation began at Pentecost, they never became part of the building making up the Church, they never became born again in Christ.

Can you give an explanation why you include the OT prophets in the Church.

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
DHK
Thus the foundation of the Church is made up of the "prophets, the apostles, and Jesus Christ, with Christ being the chief corner stone. The prophets refer to the Old Testament prophets

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Cornerstone - a stone representing the nominal starting place in the construction of a building.

Christ is the chief cornerstone, Eph 2:20; 1 Pet. 2:6.

Approximately 8 months before His crucifixion Christ tells his disciples he will build his church (Mt. 16:18). It did not exist at this time.

Church begins at Pentecost 33 AD.

The laying of the cornerstone was fulfilled in Christ during his ministry.

The Church's foundation commences with the arrival of Pentecost.

On this foundation the building of Christ's body continues today, it will be finished in time for the Rapture.

The OT prophets, including John the Baptist, passed away before the foundation began at Pentecost, they never became part of the building making up the Church, they never became born again in Christ.

Can you give an explanation why you include the OT prophets in the Church. </font>[/QUOTE]The prophets of the New Testament have nothing to do with that passage. The church is built on a Biblical foundation. Our Bible is composed of the OT prophets; NT apostles, and Christ the chief cornerstone. This is stated in other passages as well.

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

They were to be mindful the OT prophets, the words of Christ, and the words of the Apostles. These three groups are consistently tied together in the New Testament.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Scriptures were written and inspired by Holy men of old--the O.T. prophets, and by extension the New Testament Apostles. Peter also refers to Paul's epistles in chapter three as Scripture, including his writings as Scripture. In the same epistle he calls Jesus the chief corner stone.
DHK

DHK
The prophets of the New Testament have nothing to do with that passage.

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Here are three passages from Ephesians, NIV:

2:20
God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

3:5
the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

4:11
It was he who gave some to be apostles and prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,

The context of these passages is the Church, which was a mystery to the OT prophets as was the "mystery of Christ." The apostles and prophets received the revelation of the mystery of the Church and Christ in the present age, which had been hidden in days past, that is, in OT times.

The mystery of the Church and Christ was not revealed to the OT prophets, it was revealed to apostles and prophets in "God's household" composed of Jews and Gentiles. It was not revealed in past generations, it was made known to apostles and prophets in Paul's time.

You are a dispensationalist, yet your view on apostles and prophets contradicts it by placing the Church's apostles and Israel's prophets in the same dispensation.

Originally posted by prophecynut:
You are a dispensationalist, yet your view on apostles and prophets contradicts it by placing the Church's apostles and Israel's prophets in the same dispensation.

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You are right, in that I am a dispensationalist. As I check various commentaries I find that they are split on the issue. Walvoord and Zuck, in their "Bible Knowledge Commentary," agree with you that these refer to New Testament prophets, while Albert Barnes believes as I do, that these are the prophets of the Old Testament. At least we have the soul liberty to agree to disagree at this point.

It is 2Peter 3:2 that I use for my support here.

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Peter reminds or more sternly tells his readers not to forget the words of the prophets of the Old Testament (spoken before), and of the Apostles (put on the same level as the 'holy prophets'), and also of the words of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. These three groups make up the words of our Bible. It is the foundation upon which we build.
DHK