Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

Travelsong,

I didn't ask if you believed mentally.

You obviously never surrendered your life to Christ. In the email we've exchanged you have stated over and over that you feel you don't need God to be good at whatever you have decided is good.

If you have not surrendered your life to Christ, humbly and wholly, you never were a Christian.

Faith in Christ is more than belief God exists.

 

We're to love ourselves, and each other, as God loves us. In fact, I felt worthless until I came to Christ.

If we're sending the message that we're supposed to feel worthless when we come to Christ, we're not sending the message of the NT. If we have done this with anyone, then we have failed on our mission. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm in agreement with John ( ), I felt totally worthless, a waste of air and space before I was saved. Any item is worth only what someoen is willing to pay for it, happens everwhere where anything is bought and sold. I am valuable, Christ paid the ultimate price for me. He gave His life for me. Thats makes me worth a whole lot.

 

I find statements like this to be totally inappropriate, presumptuous, and demeaning. No one but Travelsong knows the depth of his commitment to Christ. If it were all crystal clear, everyone would be a Christian. Christianity is NOT a roach motel...you can check in, but you can't check out. People can believe something with all their being, and yet be convinced of the fallacy of such an argument at a later date. IMO, it is cult-like behavior to say someone was not a believer if they find compelling evidence (at least to them) contrary to said belief.

Travelsong should not be the object of pity, but of continued love.

 

Yes.

I am a black or white person yet I've always lived in the grey. Until recently I've always believed in God, and most of my life I've affirmed Jesus as saviour.

You've effectively described my dilemma with God.

If he's infinite in knowledge, he's either very mean, or finite in power. If he's infinitely benevolent then he must by definition be finite in power.

I don't mean this as offense, but for me the God of the Bible has become a lunatic screaming to be worshipped. I don't know how to change my perception of this. It's not even as though I'm filled with bitterness about it, so it's hard for me to imagine myself as rebellious. I'm still just a guy pursuing the same ideals as before without a belief that I live in some default, damnable condition.

 

You are quite right. One must have a correct perception of God to even begin to understand the mind of God. First off, He is God and the Creator of all. He has an inalienable right to what He does all the time.

The Bible is giving us just a glimpse of His nature and His reasons. The Bible is the bloodline of redemption; a reclaiming of a people back to Himself, namely, the people of Israel, His chosen people. Along the way things happen. Some not so pretty, but they do fit into the nature of God, when one rightly understands His attributes, as pictured in the whole of scripture. He cannot circumvent his attributes, else He would not be God. We are creatures of time, space and limitations, which includes our knowledge of events and of God Himself. The Israelites were learning as are we. They made mistakes, as do we.

Just take one step at a time. Don't worry about what others may think, but "to thine own self be true."

Cheers, and God bless,

Jim

 

That's very kind of you. I've only ever wanted to know the truth. I used to express it whole heartedly within the framework of Christian thought, but now I simply am not convinced of it any more.

I want as badly as anyone for there to be absolute standards of right and wrong by which all men are governed. In the context of the world as we most commonly understand it, reward and punishment in the hereafter make logical sense.

I'm okay with the idea of a god, and to some extent the idea of redemption. I just don't think I can ever bring myself to accept the god of the Bible again.

 

Why must there be absolute standards of right and wrong? Sounds like legalism to me...

 

Because the God of the Bible demands it. He is the ultimate standard by which everything is weighed, compared and judged.

 

My considerations always have and always will put my family as a top priority.

Yes, I happen to have lost my faith. That does not mean I've shredded and tossed right and wrong out the window.

 

If you want to hear an interesting discussion on this very topic, go to www.johnakerbergshow.com and get a video of a discussion between Rabbi Harold Kushner and Norman Geisler. Kushner's daughter died of a slow, agonizing disease, and he came to the same conclusion you did. He expressed his view very eloquently. Geisler explores all aspects of it in a very open, friendly manner. It's a very interesting discussion. I think it's titled "Why do bad things happen to good people?" after the title of Kushner's book.

Geisler has written on this topic, and holds that this is a false dilemma.

 

that is supposed to be
www.johnankerbergshow.com

 

Sorry I just picked up that this thread was here and written by Travelsong . . .

Travelsong, I'm not in the slightest bit worried about your spiritual state. I think you are actually learning more about what God is really like instead of what you had been led to believe, that's all. I'll pray for you that God will reconfirm to you His reality and His love for us all in His way in His timing.

(Sometimes I REALLY REALLY want to talk to Him about His ideas of proper timing . . . )

 

What's with the rude comment?

No need to overanalyze. I see it this way:

1 - The bible says that the penalty for sin is spiritual death.
2 - I sin.
3 - Because of 1 and 2, I am unable to pay the price that my own sin costs.
4 - Jesus has offerred to pay that price for me.
5 - I will let him.

Let all others spend the rest of their days analyzing, interpreting, and debating. I'm satisfied with the above, and that's why I have decided to be a follower of Christ. I admit I don't always know what that means, and freely admit that I often fail in my attempt to follow him.

I invite you to do the same. Maybe you won't today, maybe you won't tomorrow, but whenever you're ready, you're welcome to join me.

 

"I happened to have lost my faith..."

Thank the Lord. "Your faith" was counterfeit. Real faith does not come from depraved man--contrary to popular opinion,depraved man has not one iota of faith in his being. "My faith" is a misnomer. If we have any real faith, God gave it to us--we cannot throw it away, give it away--it belongs to God--just like all the redeemed are bought with a price. See Eph. 2:8-10. If we have any faith of ourselves to exercise, then we can boast: "God I did my part, now you do yours". Salvation becomes a coop between God and Man. That is a teaching from the pit.

God gave me the faith to believe that Jesus redeemed this filthy sinner by shedding His innocent blood--that is the grace of God. He could have destroyed everything He created and still be perfectly justified. He is infinitely holy. We are infinitely depraved.

God also keeps me by His grace.

Bottom line: if "your faith" is not enduring to the end, better check out where you got it.

The faith that God gives endures through eternity.

Back to the closet--with the light on and a Bible, read Romans chapters 1-5 very slowly.
Now, turn out the light. Let the Holy Spirit
bear witness to The Word.

If you have not already done so,throw away "your faith" and receive the faith that only God can give.

Selah,

Bro. James

[ October 26, 2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

Travelsong,

I don't know you, or your history, but I sense a great deal of anguish in your recent posts. Whatever has happened to bring you to this decision must have been incredibly painful. But remember: God has not abandoned you just because of your abandonment of your faith. He still loves you and will never stop pursuing you. He is the perfect parent, and his wrath is perfectly balanced with love. Things may seem out of control, but He is still God. Just because we do not always understand His ways does not lessen His deity.

Please be sure that many of us here at BB are praying for you. You are not abandoned or alone. Deut. 4:29-31 says "the Lord your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon you."

Gwen

 

WHy are you thinking on all the short commings? I looked at your profile and seen that you say your a Baptist.... well then.. surly you heard the Good News that you are more than a conquer? Rom. 8:37-39

Jesus took it all when he died on the cross. Yes I messed up (we all mess up) in my life I'm not perfect yet or I'd be walking on water. (Now I'm just a wet water walker..but its better than a dry boat sitter) But when I do mess up and sometimes I have them days where I don't do nothing right... I repent and Jesus is always there. I think its the devil that is making you kick yourself in areas that you haven't overcame in and if I was you I'd tell old "Lucy" that Jesus paid it all and remind him who you are in Christ. Don't think on the negitive, trust God and look at all the promises He has given you.

Rom.15:13

Don't give up!

 

Travelsong,

Let me make an observation here; I’m with Paul of Eugene on this and will add I don’t hear the words of an Agnostic here at all. Why do you think you’re compelled to announce this? I’m hearing great conviction which I would say only comes from faith, not only that but I think the HS is talking to you and about to drop you to your knees and you have your legs locked because of a LIAR. It sounds to me you are having trouble letting go of self, getting caught up in Philosophy maybe? That’s a good way to get spoiled in your faith, Colossians 2:8 my friend, don’t just read it, memorize it! Stay in His word for the truth. Are you asking men to show you the truth?

Need more faith to bend those knees? Ask God, go into His word and see what He says to you. You are certainly not the first to struggle against sin and try understanding God’s love. Nothing new under the sun, think about what Paul went through. (Romans 7:18-25) God will show you the faith you need if you ask Him. (Matthew 7:7) Do you know the difference between tears of frustration and tears of joy? It’s not that far apart. Read Ecclesiastes and Palms. Do you go to church, pray, and read your Bible to know God or just read this board? How often do you crack the Bible open and pray behind a closed door? Meditate on this:


(Psa 143:1) A Psalm of David. Hear my prayer, O LORD, give ear to my supplications: in thy faithfulness answer me, and in thy righteousness.

(Psa 143:2) And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

(Psa 143:3) For the enemy hath persecuted my soul; he hath smitten my life down to the ground; he hath made me to dwell in darkness, as those that have been long dead.

(Psa 143:4) Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me ; my heart within me is desolate.

(Psa 143:5) I remember the days of old; I meditate on all thy works; I muse on the work of thy hands.

(Psa 143:6) I stretch forth my hands unto thee: my soul thirsteth after thee, as a thirsty land. Selah.

(Psa 143:7) Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit.

(Psa 143:8) Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; for in thee do I trust: cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; for I lift up my soul unto thee.

(Psa 143:9) Deliver me, O LORD, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me.

(Psa 143:10) Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

(Psa 143:11) Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake bring my soul out of trouble.

(Psa 143:12) And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant.

Read what God’s letter has to say to you and you won’t be afraid to bend those knees, you will do it out of love and faith, the tears will turn to joy. Just ask Him and see for yourself.

My prayers are with you.

 

Ditto

 

Travelsong: //but for me the God of the Bible
has become a lunatic screaming to be worshipped. I don't know
how to change my perception of this.//

I don't know how to change your perception either.
I'll just share my perception.

God is self-existant and self-sufficient, that is He needs no human being
to create HIm nor complete His Self. Nevertheless, He would have us worship Him.
Then the worship of Him must be for our good not His good.

BTW, I'm searching my Scriptures diligently trying to find the
verses that must say something like:

O.T. Thou shalt Judge the Salvation of Others.

N.T. Hasten, hasten to Judge the Salvation of another.
N.T. Be instant to Judge the Salvation of another; be instant
in season, be instant out of season.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but this very month i've been
called a "self-righteous /expletive deleted/" which was, when the
fellow saw a woman, changed to "self-righteous hypocrite".
My crime? I had (I took it off lest I offend another) a bumper sticker
that read:

I believe the Big Bang Theory:
God Said It - and Bang! It Happened!