Travelsong, is it not the case that your objection to God is primarily intellectual rather than relational? If so could it be that your 'head knowledge' assumptions about Him are incorrect? To an extent we are all guilty of this - making God in our own image, so I guess I can no more cast stones than the next man, but just something for you to consider...
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Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread
- Thread starter Aaron
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
First of all you have to BE A Calvinist to start out rejecting "God SO LOVED The WORLD that HE GAVE" as you are doing.
God's LOVE was UNCONDITIONAL and was toward the ENTIRE WORLD!
So that HE "Sent His Son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD" 1John 4:14 giving HIM as "THE ATONING SACRIFICE for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD"
Your argument that this ALL ENCOMPASSING atoning sacrifice that pays for ALL the sins of ALL the world is "unloving" arbitrary or hateful -- could only survive in a Calvinist model!
Why go there?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
God opens a door of escape for the WHOLE WORLD by offering to take upon HIMSELF ALL the debt that is owed by the WHOLE WORLD and pay it FOR US!
And you want to whine "yes but then that means we have to ACCEPT God's escape plan and can not simply reject it and do as we please and still be ok in this burning building"!
How in the World is that rational???
That is CAlvinism using its notion of "pagan propitiation" in 1 John 2:2 INSTEAD of "God so LOVED THE WORLD that He gave" -- the Calvinists faithfully twists it around to say "The ANGRY God was SO PROPITIATED by the sacrifice of Christ for the FEW that HE finally decided to relent and to love just them".
You have to BE a Calvinist to believe that!!
Why go there?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Pure Calvinism "again".
In the Calvinist view they need to IGNORE the Romans 9 fact that "God deal with much patience those who are going to hell" while He "CONVICTS THE WORLD of SIN and righteousness and judgment" John 16 and "DRAWS ALL MANKIND UNTO HIM" John 12:32.
In 2Peter 3 we are told that "GOD is NOT WILLING FOR ANY to perish but is long suffering and desires ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE".
Your argument about the pagans that "HAVE NO SCRIPTURE" is addressed in Romans 2:11-16 where it SHOWS That those WITHOUT the Bible who "DO instinctively" the things of the LAW SHOWING the NEW Covenant principle of the Holy Spirit writing "The LAW UPON THEIR HEARTS" are in fact justified in that FUTURE Judgment of Christ according "to the Gospel" as Paul says in Romans 2.
Your view of an ineffective God UNNABLE to reach the lost through the Holy Spirit UNLESS a human is sent to them is denied in Romans 10 and in Romans 1 where it is pointed out over and over again that God the Holy Spirit not only DRAWS all mankind to salvation but also uses NATURE as His voice to ALL the world.
That does not mean that all the world will accept "The LIGHT that COMING into the WORLD ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN" John 1:5-10
But it DOES mean that there is NO LIMIT to the role of Christ as "HE stands at the door and knocks so that if anyone HEARS AND OPENS THE DOOR He will come in".
God says in Romans 2:10-11 "I am not partial" and though this is rejected by Calvinists - it is in fact the God that "SO LOVED THE WORLD that HE GAVE" and the one that "COMING INTO THE WORLD ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN".
You seem to have missed the beauty of the Gospel Travelson.
How so??
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Travelsong -- for an even better contrast in vivid living color for how your Calvinist view of God contrasts to the Arminian one -- read this
Lets try the Arminian view of the future - where you go to heaven as one of the "FEW" and find that your precious child was one of the "MANY" of Matt 7.
(Note: The obvious premise points.
1. There is a God,
2. there will be a day of judgment,
3. not everyone is going to heaven.
So we would then have the following scenario - that you might "expect" if the doctrines of Grace as seen in the Arminian teachings are true..).
Of course the Calvinist may say of the Arminian God that we see pictured here "OH how TERRIBLE! How AWFUL" that God would "ALLOW selfless concern for our lost children EVEN for a moment once we are in heaven" (as some have said)... or that "God would LOVE our lost children" (As others have said) -- But I know that "not many" will do so - even among Calvinists because the comparison is obvious - blatant and clear.
</font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,
Bob
Some (Calvinists) have argued that plugging our doctrine into the future scenario to see what we are really saying about God - is not valid since our doctrines may not always fare well in that exposed light of day. So we now plug that same set of conditions and variables that determined the Calvinist future scenario – into an Arminian Future Scenario. Using the same conditions simplifies the “contrast and compare” exercise between Calvinist principles and Arminian ones.
Lets try the Arminian view of the future - where you go to heaven as one of the "FEW" and find that your precious child was one of the "MANY" of Matt 7.
(Note: The obvious premise points.
1. There is a God,
2. there will be a day of judgment,
3. not everyone is going to heaven.
So we would then have the following scenario - that you might "expect" if the doctrines of Grace as seen in the Arminian teachings are true..).
</font>[/QUOTE]Oh what wonderful Grace! What unbiased impartial Love! What sacrifice lavished upon both the saved AND the Lost!
Of course the Calvinist may say of the Arminian God that we see pictured here "OH how TERRIBLE! How AWFUL" that God would "ALLOW selfless concern for our lost children EVEN for a moment once we are in heaven" (as some have said)... or that "God would LOVE our lost children" (As others have said) -- But I know that "not many" will do so - even among Calvinists because the comparison is obvious - blatant and clear.
</font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,
Bob
We are starting to sound like Job's "friends" giving him advice about why he was in such a terrible condition.
One of his responses: "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."
God's sovereign grace in the OT. He has not changed.
Let us leave Jacobus and Jean in the classroom--they are about 6000 years after the fact.
John Ch. 3: "Ye must be born again to enter the kingdom"--Jesus to Nicodemus, a Master(an MRRD, Most Right Reverend Doctor?) of Israel. "Nick" had not a clue--was he an agnostic?
Only Jesus saves--to the uttermost--He never leaves nor forsakes. We do it often.
It is still true: Whosoever shall call upon the name of The Lord--shall be saved.
What have we done with Jesus?
Selah,
Bro. James
One of his responses: "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."
God's sovereign grace in the OT. He has not changed.
Let us leave Jacobus and Jean in the classroom--they are about 6000 years after the fact.
John Ch. 3: "Ye must be born again to enter the kingdom"--Jesus to Nicodemus, a Master(an MRRD, Most Right Reverend Doctor?) of Israel. "Nick" had not a clue--was he an agnostic?
Only Jesus saves--to the uttermost--He never leaves nor forsakes. We do it often.
It is still true: Whosoever shall call upon the name of The Lord--shall be saved.
What have we done with Jesus?
Selah,
Bro. James
Who is God?? Nay, rather: "Is there God?"
Agnostic is a very confused state of the "human" condition. One thinks that one "cannot know" if God is or God is not. That is the basic definition: cannot know. This is part of the humanistic dilemma--I do not know, cannot know, I will find out at the end. With some it is: I really do not want to know--if there is a God, then my world of self-accountability does not exist--I would have to give account to someone greater than I. I do not like that possiblity.
How did we get here? What are we doing here?--are still basically unanswered questions for those who are trying to "ride this fence".
Agnosticism fills the void between "God is" and "God is not". Many folks are seemingly comfortable with such "thin ice".
What shall we do--contemplate our navels all day?
It is written: Romans 1:18..., "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."
The things that are made, not evolved, are plain evidence for: God is. What can we make--atom bombs? God made atoms. One looks through a telscope and exclaims: My God, how great thou art! Another: My Big Bang, how interesting are your possibilities. Now what? Who can make a Big Bang--Carl Sagan?
God made us--we are his creatures. We have a problem with omni--we would like to be God, but we cannot--many are still trying. Lucifer has the same fatal notion.
Can we convince ourselves that God is? No. We are totally depraved. God is infinitely Holy. We cannot conjure up enough faith in our beings for one iota of faith in God--it is a gift from God. "MY faith"is a misnomer. See Eph. 2:8-10.
Back to Romans: It is written: Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God". If God has not pulled your lifeline, you are pulling yourself, and the other end of the rope is not anchored. It matters not how much rope you pull, you are still going to sink. Jesus saves, God keeps. Its real.
What is your anchor? Will it hold?
Selah,
Bro. James
[ October 29, 2005, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]
Agnostic is a very confused state of the "human" condition. One thinks that one "cannot know" if God is or God is not. That is the basic definition: cannot know. This is part of the humanistic dilemma--I do not know, cannot know, I will find out at the end. With some it is: I really do not want to know--if there is a God, then my world of self-accountability does not exist--I would have to give account to someone greater than I. I do not like that possiblity.
How did we get here? What are we doing here?--are still basically unanswered questions for those who are trying to "ride this fence".
Agnosticism fills the void between "God is" and "God is not". Many folks are seemingly comfortable with such "thin ice".
What shall we do--contemplate our navels all day?
It is written: Romans 1:18..., "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."
The things that are made, not evolved, are plain evidence for: God is. What can we make--atom bombs? God made atoms. One looks through a telscope and exclaims: My God, how great thou art! Another: My Big Bang, how interesting are your possibilities. Now what? Who can make a Big Bang--Carl Sagan?
God made us--we are his creatures. We have a problem with omni--we would like to be God, but we cannot--many are still trying. Lucifer has the same fatal notion.
Can we convince ourselves that God is? No. We are totally depraved. God is infinitely Holy. We cannot conjure up enough faith in our beings for one iota of faith in God--it is a gift from God. "MY faith"is a misnomer. See Eph. 2:8-10.
Back to Romans: It is written: Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God". If God has not pulled your lifeline, you are pulling yourself, and the other end of the rope is not anchored. It matters not how much rope you pull, you are still going to sink. Jesus saves, God keeps. Its real.
What is your anchor? Will it hold?
Selah,
Bro. James
[ October 29, 2005, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The specifics abouto "Who is God" in the OP ask about hell and God's use of it and whether He just "arbitrarily selects some for heaven" or actually impartially "So loves the World".
It also asks the question -- If God really so loves the World (like He says He does) then is he inneffective or does the Arminian scenario SHOW how a loving parent is dealing with rebellion -- "effectively"?
It is all there.
In Christ,
Bob
It also asks the question -- If God really so loves the World (like He says He does) then is he inneffective or does the Arminian scenario SHOW how a loving parent is dealing with rebellion -- "effectively"?
It is all there.
In Christ,
Bob
All hail: Arminius and Chauvin!!!!
Now, shall we help this brother out of the ditch?
Or, play strawman philosphies?
An agnostic has faith. It is usually a faith which is based on self-centered intellectual discoveries based on studying Darwin thru Einstein, etal. Some include Newton and Galileo, which may add to the confusion--those guys believed the Bible. But then, men and women of science do not really believe the Bible, or do they?
Curiously, Charles D. had scholastic credentials--from a seminary. He was a "naturalist" by way of his hobby. His excursions on the HMS Beagle were by way of "political plums". Charles spent much of his evolutionary journey in the throes of seasickness--or perhaps some "wacky tobaccy"--an evolving species. He did seem to make sense at times--he said his theories were based on finding evidence of transitional forms--their continued absence continues to suggest that mankind's ancestors were probably NOT glorified monkeys.
Such confusion. God is not the author of confusion. Satan is the father of lies. He lied to Eve, not Lucy or Steve, to the point where she was beguiled. Adam just plain disobeyed. Oops, there is that terrible notion which can be described in one three letter word: SIN---SIN---SIN---SIN--SIN--SIN--SIN.
Well, I am not so bad, look at that fellow over there. I did all of these wonderful things. What is wrong with my sacrifice? God,if you are there, you are mean, terrible, unjust, arbitrary, capricious.(the clay to the Potter)
Now what? Until a person realizes his/her total depravity and inability to have faith in God, that person is still in the miry clay of SIN.
Only God can provide the faith to believe that He has provided the only means of heaven--the shed blood of Jesus, The Christ.
There is more good news: the names are already written in the Lamb's Book of Life and nothing can change that. All Satan can do is try to confuse them--and he does.
Praise the Lord, His Grace is sufficient to provide our every need--He even gives the faith to believe. He is always faithful--even though we are not--He is still there to pick us up when we stumble and wind up in the ditch. His children can never perish.
Wake up, get out The Book, read what God says through the Apostle John, then the Apostle Paul; now ask God what you need to do.
Then just do it--using His strength this time.
Selah,
Bro James
[ October 30, 2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]
Now, shall we help this brother out of the ditch?
Or, play strawman philosphies?
An agnostic has faith. It is usually a faith which is based on self-centered intellectual discoveries based on studying Darwin thru Einstein, etal. Some include Newton and Galileo, which may add to the confusion--those guys believed the Bible. But then, men and women of science do not really believe the Bible, or do they?
Curiously, Charles D. had scholastic credentials--from a seminary. He was a "naturalist" by way of his hobby. His excursions on the HMS Beagle were by way of "political plums". Charles spent much of his evolutionary journey in the throes of seasickness--or perhaps some "wacky tobaccy"--an evolving species. He did seem to make sense at times--he said his theories were based on finding evidence of transitional forms--their continued absence continues to suggest that mankind's ancestors were probably NOT glorified monkeys.
Such confusion. God is not the author of confusion. Satan is the father of lies. He lied to Eve, not Lucy or Steve, to the point where she was beguiled. Adam just plain disobeyed. Oops, there is that terrible notion which can be described in one three letter word: SIN---SIN---SIN---SIN--SIN--SIN--SIN.
Well, I am not so bad, look at that fellow over there. I did all of these wonderful things. What is wrong with my sacrifice? God,if you are there, you are mean, terrible, unjust, arbitrary, capricious.(the clay to the Potter)
Now what? Until a person realizes his/her total depravity and inability to have faith in God, that person is still in the miry clay of SIN.
Only God can provide the faith to believe that He has provided the only means of heaven--the shed blood of Jesus, The Christ.
There is more good news: the names are already written in the Lamb's Book of Life and nothing can change that. All Satan can do is try to confuse them--and he does.
Praise the Lord, His Grace is sufficient to provide our every need--He even gives the faith to believe. He is always faithful--even though we are not--He is still there to pick us up when we stumble and wind up in the ditch. His children can never perish.
Wake up, get out The Book, read what God says through the Apostle John, then the Apostle Paul; now ask God what you need to do.
Then just do it--using His strength this time.
Selah,
Bro James
[ October 30, 2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]
T
Travelsong
Guest
Evolution and common descent never presented a dilemma for me.
I do not have a problem with the historical accuracy of the Bible, nor with miracles.
What you guys are failing to understand is that I have a problem with the moral character of god as he is presented in the Bible.
Eternal damnation is not a suitable punishment for being born with a condition that one is not responsible for. You can obfuscate and fluff it up with distracting language, but this fact is inescapable.
If Jesus truly is the only way to god, then god is evil. I will never again believe that countles nations and people groups have been raised up with god's full knowledge that they would never be able to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus.
Charles asked me earlier if I switched to agnosticism because I need some kind of validation. I would ask the same of god.
Christianity gives easy answers for everything. Hurricane Katrina? God's wrath. Pain, death and misery inflicted upon innocents all over the world? It's just part of some eternal plan which we can't understand.
My conscience is now clear to believe that god is concerned about the trivial problems of my middle class suburban life while at the very same time he allows injustice and ugliness to thrive all over the world. No thanks. I will not live in that kind of hypocrisy any longer.
I do not have a problem with the historical accuracy of the Bible, nor with miracles.
What you guys are failing to understand is that I have a problem with the moral character of god as he is presented in the Bible.
Eternal damnation is not a suitable punishment for being born with a condition that one is not responsible for. You can obfuscate and fluff it up with distracting language, but this fact is inescapable.
If Jesus truly is the only way to god, then god is evil. I will never again believe that countles nations and people groups have been raised up with god's full knowledge that they would never be able to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus.
Charles asked me earlier if I switched to agnosticism because I need some kind of validation. I would ask the same of god.
Christianity gives easy answers for everything. Hurricane Katrina? God's wrath. Pain, death and misery inflicted upon innocents all over the world? It's just part of some eternal plan which we can't understand.
My conscience is now clear to believe that god is concerned about the trivial problems of my middle class suburban life while at the very same time he allows injustice and ugliness to thrive all over the world. No thanks. I will not live in that kind of hypocrisy any longer.
Travelsong
It seems to me, you have chosen some rather strange doctrines and a rather strange god to pick a fight with. No doubt some would argue with my characterization, but that's okay.
Rather than kick against some narrow minded and sectarian ideas that you have possibly learned from others, why not prayerfully read the Bible again, while asking God to reveal to you what He is really like and has revealed to us in His word. Just you and God. He promised he would give wisdom to anyone who asked in the right spirit.
Don't think you are the only one who has struggled with some of the issues you raised. You are obviously an intellignet and thoughtful person who is seeking some answers beyond what many people even understand how to ask. Just as Soloman discoverd (Ecc.), there can be much vexation in knowledge, especially when we don't allow God to guide us to a proper understanding of how that knowledge is to be tempered with God's wisdom.
Paraphrasing: "Won't the Creator of the world do right with his creation (and creatures)"?
Yes, He will! Always hold on to that idea. Praise Jesus!
I'm praying for you - no doubt, so are others.
It seems to me, you have chosen some rather strange doctrines and a rather strange god to pick a fight with. No doubt some would argue with my characterization, but that's okay.
Rather than kick against some narrow minded and sectarian ideas that you have possibly learned from others, why not prayerfully read the Bible again, while asking God to reveal to you what He is really like and has revealed to us in His word. Just you and God. He promised he would give wisdom to anyone who asked in the right spirit.
Don't think you are the only one who has struggled with some of the issues you raised. You are obviously an intellignet and thoughtful person who is seeking some answers beyond what many people even understand how to ask. Just as Soloman discoverd (Ecc.), there can be much vexation in knowledge, especially when we don't allow God to guide us to a proper understanding of how that knowledge is to be tempered with God's wisdom.
Paraphrasing: "Won't the Creator of the world do right with his creation (and creatures)"?
Yes, He will! Always hold on to that idea. Praise Jesus!
I'm praying for you - no doubt, so are others.
Travelsong,
First, let me say I will be praying for you. Second, I will say I struggled with the same issues you do. It caused me to turn my back on God and make some regretful decisions. Third, Please if you are searching check out a book called The Case for Faith. It is great.
First, let me say I will be praying for you. Second, I will say I struggled with the same issues you do. It caused me to turn my back on God and make some regretful decisions. Third, Please if you are searching check out a book called The Case for Faith. It is great.
Travelsong--Did you go back to the closet?
Have YOU have run out of "YOUR FAITH", and now YOU want to blame God's character for YOUR woes?
The faith that God gives does not run out and Jesus saves to the uttermost. Now what?
We can never understand the will of God in this life. He is beyond our comprehension.
Have you gone back to your first encounter with God?
Selah,
Bro. James
Have YOU have run out of "YOUR FAITH", and now YOU want to blame God's character for YOUR woes?
The faith that God gives does not run out and Jesus saves to the uttermost. Now what?
We can never understand the will of God in this life. He is beyond our comprehension.
Have you gone back to your first encounter with God?
Selah,
Bro. James
Because the God of the Bible demands it. He is the ultimate standard by which everything is weighed, compared and judged. </font>[/QUOTE]Over the years I have dealt with quite a number of people just like you. Some have been involved in non-Christian cults and "Christian" cults. The common thread I found is the issue of control. Everyone of them were in very controlling situations. One man lost his wife because of his involvement for about 14 years in a Christian cult which was highly controlling and legalistic. What I found was that he did not even undersatnd some basic ideas of who Gos is as found in scripture. Even new believers would question him about a number of things. His interpretation of scripture was hardly at a basic level. After two years out of the cult and in a Bible study a very different man emerged. Instead of being judgmental he became a man who was gracious and loving.
From what I read, I believe you have been trapped by legalism and not the same God in the Bible who extends grace. If you study other cultures you will find that every culture understands that there is sin and payment must be paid for that sin.
The real idea of God is that He has created us with the things we have that we cannot change such as hair color, the color of our eyes, our intelelctual and practical intelligence, etc. But within that domain he allows us to move about freely making choices for good or bad. It's much like the idea of a cow being in a pasture. The cow is within the boundaries the farmer chooses but is free to eat the grass within those boundaries. Would the cow have a better or worse life without those boundaties? The cow would probably die rather quickly if it were free to raom about because it would not have the protection of a fence and the protection of the farmer.
God did not create you to be a robot but a person who ahs a relationship with God.
Spirituality is not measured by a given set of rules of do's and don'ts. It is measured by relationship. Many religions measure spirituality by works much like climbing a ladder. When you reach the top then you can claim spirituality. A works based measuremtn focuses on man and gives reason to boast. Christianity focuses on Christ and our relationship with God which is something we cannot baost about. To boast about a relationship and claiming spirituality is much like boasting about our relationship with our wife or husband. We know if we have a good relationship but we do not boast about it. As a result of a good relationship there are many positive benefits and a bad relationship yields other bad results.
A relationship with God cannot be measured but it is known by the individual person. I cannot measure the relationship I have with my wife but I know if I love her. I cannot measure the relationship by a set of rules but simply by relationship.
God does not want our rules. God does not want our sacrifice. He wants us. He wants us as we are.
T
Travelsong
Guest
I have no need to.
Not at all. I have simply traded faith for reason. A god who allows nations to rise solely for the purpose of destruction is unreasonable. I categorically reject any such notion of god.
And therein lies the sole power of our Christian god. He's a giant mystery. How do we reconcile his full sovereignty with individual accountability? It's just a big mystery. Where does sin have it's origin? It's just a big mystery.
The moment you give god reasons for his actions he ceases to exist. God needs these vague, meaningless answers to the biggest contradictions of his character in order to perpetuate his exsistence.
I'm afraid there is no turning back. As I've said previously, I cannot acknowledge a god who allows misery, suffering and death to flourish and condemns the ignorant to eternal flame.
I cannot acknowledge a god who sends people to eternal torment for no other crime than being born.
T
Travelsong
Guest
gb, I've been called many things in my life, but a legalist is not one of them. You miss the thrust of my argument entirely.
Perhaps you would not call yourself a legalist but your view of God seems to line up with what they believe. As I read your postings again I read a lot of things that focused on you. I believe your view of God is wrong. God is loving even in the OT. As you will notice he warns the people of their doom should they continue on their own ways. When they do not listen they get the results of their ways. The Jewish view of God is different than if we approach God from a Greek philosophical persepective. The Jewish perspective is much like drawing a circle around life and in that circle is everything including God. Their view is that God is present everywhere in everything we do. The Greek idea is that everything has a compartment. The Jews believed that God caused everything. Certainly we in our culture do not believe that quite the same way. We believe man has choices. I am sure if you read the OT you will see man is faced with choices.
When a parent disciplines their child it is for the child's good. When a parent warns a child it is for the child's good. A parent is not bad because he punishes a child. If you have ever taught you can easily see what happens in the classroom dynamics if you do not have the students stop their poor behavior to keep it from getting more intense.
How can God be loving without also being judge. The judge is the standard. If God were not the ultimate judge, things would be chaos. If God were not the ultimate judge there would be no standard of morality. I think a classic case is Judas. We see that type of thing today on the evening news. I am glad God judges. I am glad He loves. I am glad he sees fit to get rid of evil. Imagine what it would be like with evil all around us and controlling society.
Sometime take a look at Point Royal on the island of Jamaica and Liberal, MO and read about what happened when they tried to shut God out and keep out churches. Read about communism and how it attempted to become a Godless nation. Everyone of them became nothing due to their own ways.